Framingham's Scott Hotyckey, also known as juror No. 5 in the trial of James "Whitey" Bulger, talked to WGBH's Edgar B. Herwick III about the atmosphere in the jury room, and the process of getting to a verdict.
On his belief that fear was a factor for some jurors in the case:
SH: I didn't feel afraid. I think other people did. I think there's a definite sense that if you testify against organized crime and people like that – it's one of the reasons they think they can get away with it because they think they're like God, right?
EBH3: And you think some jurors were afraid that if they convicted there would be some retribution for that?
SH: Oh yeah. Yup, I mean, I think there's definitely fear. That was part of the whole thing that blinded people towards the facts and wanting to actually see what was in front of them.
Describing what it was like to sit on the jury for this case:
A lot of deliberation and a lot of discussion of the law and a lot of discussion about what happened and a lot of notes. And a lot of coming to grips with everybody there. I'm one-twelfth of the whole thing. And regardless if I had the right answer or not, other people had to come to that same conclusion. And most people aren't discussion makers or are not accustomed to processing this type of information. It's an unusual thing. Most people, if you ask them a question, they don't feel like they have to give an answer. On something like this you have to. There's no choice - you have to give a decision.
Hotyckey explains how the Debra Davis murder charge, which at first seemed to be a slam dunk for the prosecution, became a divisive issue in the jury room, as did the charge in the murder of Deborah Hussey:
The first two days, that seemed like an easy one to find a proven on, and it became such a contested area it looked like there would be a mistrial or a hung jury. So it was dropped until the final day. And those decisions were the last two decisions to be made on the two women. They both had no proven and they both lasted to the very end because they were so controversial and hot issues to talk about. People were not going to change their mind, even through reason. But I'm very happy that in the end, even though they were heavily contested, Deborah Hussey, it was found proven.
Hotyckey explains his position on the murder of Debra Davis, and how the jury ultimately ended up ruling there was no finding:
It started to go back the other way - like, not proven on Debra Davis. And I said look, I would like to speak and say that I definitely find it proven, from the location of the body. Criminals are not intelligent. To bury somebody that close to your house. That's not a good indication. We've got testimony. We've got facts. And you don't want to look at those facts. But I'm gonna say it's proven. And if you're gonna say that you're not gonna change your mind, I'm gonna say that I'm not gonna change my mind.
Earlier this week Hockney described the deliberations as "stressful" and full of "dissension." Here he describes an example of that tension:
I never said that I was right. I just said, 'Look this is what I believe.' I never tried to force my opinions on anybody. Like if I say, as a matter not associated with this case in any way, but if I said 'I believe in God' if somebody asked you that. And then somebody says, 'Don't preach to me.' It's like, 'I didn't. I just told you what I believe.' You're just trying to say what you believe and have it be part of the equation.
Hotyckey told me that he felt he had earned a reputation among some in the jury room as one of the more difficult jurors. Here he explained his approach.
The job had to get done. I mean, you have to make a decision – whether it takes five days or 10 days or a day. People finally made that decision, and if I was a tough guy, and I came out and said 'this guy seemed to be guilty on the charges that are in front of me,' and I got abused because of it, in the end, it was proven that they all agreed with those decisions I made originally. I didn't change my mind. I just said 'look that's what it looks like' and then people, if it takes them three or four days to figure out, by the law, that that's what the law says, that's not because I was forcing them to think that way, it's just took that long for them to arrive at the same conclusion that I did a couple days earlier.
Hotyckey said that the defense's lawyers were convincing and seemed trustworthy. He said their arguments and their demeanor were persuasive with some jurors:
In this case, I'd say that since people put more weight on things than others – not the evidence - its a little bit of a shame. And I think in the end people might change their mind later on. But it would be sad to think that this person that's been waiting for justice for twenty years, Steve Davis, to have some closure, could have had what he wanted. It was just a simple matter of believing somebody who looks like they should be telling you the truth.
Speaking broadly about what the jury's task was, and what they did:
You have to focus, and there has to be a focus on specifically what the law states and what you perceived as a juror and exactly what you remember and then you have to go over your notes and go over [it all] with other people to make a logical decision. It was about making the right decision that day. Nobody's perfect, and nobody can answer every question in the world, but you can answer a specific question in a specific circumstance at the time correctly, accurately and fairly. And that's exactly what we did.
