Transcript
>> HINOJOSA: Every day we make
dozens of choices-- what to eat,
what to buy, what to do.
Our guest today is one of the
world's foremost experts on how
we decide-- social scientist and
author Sheena Iyengar.
I'm Maria Hinojosa.
This is One on One.
Sheena Iyengar, you are the
author of the book The Art of
Choosing.
And thank you for choosing to be
with us.
>> IYENGAR: Thank you for having me here
today.
>> HINOJOSA: So your book starts
out basically where you lay out
two narratives of your own
personal history.
You were born in Canada, parents
are from India, the Sikh
religion, and you basically say,
"Here's one story of how my life
could be seen, more like a
victim, and here's another story
of how my life could be seen,
which is a life of extraordinary
possibilities and choice."
And you basically say you want
us all to think about how we
choose the narrative of our own
life.
Because how we choose to see
ourselves says everything about
kind of how we do end up seeing
ourselves.
Am I right?
>> IYENGAR: Yes.
If I were to ask you, you know,
"Why are you here-- what is it
that ended up making you do what
you to today?" you along with
anyone else, if you were to
answer that question, you could
give me any one of three
versions of that story.
You could tell me how you were
destined to be here.
You could tell me how there was
some fortunate event that led
you to be here, some chance
event.
Or you could tell me the story
of how you chose to be here.
And I think that it's probably
accurate to say that any of
those stories might be true, or
at least not falsifiable.
But I think there's something
special when you tell the story
of your life in terms of choice,
because when you tell the story
of your life in terms of choice,
it gives everything you say and
do some greater meaning, and it
also enables you to think about
the possibilities, the ways that
you can take control of your
life.
Because unlike fate and chance,
choice is really the only thing
we have in our life that enables
us to go from who we are today
to whom we want to be tomorrow.
>> HINOJOSA: But your own
personal story is so amazing in
the sense that in the Sikh
religion, there's not a lot of
choices that you are given.
So because there are a lot of
people who don't know a lot
about the Sikh beliefs-- and I
didn't, as I read more and more
about your own story-- lay it
out for us.
>> IYENGAR: Well, you know, it's an
entirely different model of life
from the American model of life.
So when you are born as a Sikh,
you know, you're born into a
particular religious set of
rituals.
And so when I was growing up I
used to go to the Sikh temple,
the Gurdwara, on Friday night,
on Saturday night, and most of
Sunday.
And there's lots of different
things you're supposed to
follow.
You know, you take the advice of
your elders, you do what your
parents tell you to do, you
dress conservatively, you wear a
steel bracelet on your right arm
at all times, you never cut your
hair, you are not allowed to
ever take off your underwear.
That's supposed to be a symbol
of being able to control any
sexual impulses.
And so, for example, when I was
growing up, you had to keep your
underwear on even when you were
taking a shower.
>> HINOJOSA: I was wondering if
you were going to bring that up.
I said, "I'm not going to ask
Sheena about that, because it's
a little..." but you write...
>> IYENGAR: I always thought that was so,
you know, weird when I was
growing up.
And, you know, my parents'
marriage, for example, was
arranged, and in fact most of
the aunties and uncles... you
know, everybody's marriage was
arranged.
It was a rare event that anybody
chose, quote-unquote, their
spouse.
And that was considered a bit
odd, to do something like that.
And your career was very much
selected by, you know, the
advice of your parents or the
elders in the household.
And that was really the way the
Sikh lifestyle was.
>> HINOJOSA: Not a lot of
choice.
A lot of things predetermined
for you, decided by people...
>> IYENGAR: Certainly not a lot of
personal choice.
There was choosing going on, but
it was not a lot of personal
choice, in that if you were to
make a choice, that was
something that was earned.
That was something that came as
a function of age and
experience, so to speak.
Whereas as an American, when I
was growing up, you were
constantly told you were
supposed to make the choices in
life, you were supposed to
decide what you were going to
wear and how you...
>> HINOJOSA: But let's step back
for one second so people realize
you were born in Canada, but
then your parents moved to New
York, and you were being raised
in Queens.
>> IYENGAR: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: And when you're
being raised... now, something
happens to you when you're a
young girl that you didn't quite
understand.
You started bumping into a lot
of things, walls.
>> IYENGAR: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: And things like
that.
And when your parents finally
took you to the doctor, it
turned out that you were
actually going blind.
>> IYENGAR: Yes, I was born with
retinitis pigmentosa.
>> HINOJOSA: And what was that
like?
I've read that your parents
didn't really want you talking
about the fact that you were
blind.
>> IYENGAR: Yes.
You know, I think they didn't
quite know what to make of it,
you know?
And there certainly was this
fear that in society they would
somehow get pitied or labeled in
some way.
You know, remember, I said we
went to Gurdwara Friday night,
Saturday night, and all day
Sunday.
They didn't want people to be
staring at them.
So I did spend a good portion of
my childhood trying to, you
know, not let people know.
So I almost had two lives, where
in the Gurdwara you were always
trying to hide it, and in school
you were, of course, labeled as
the one that had the special
needs.
>> HINOJOSA: What was that like
for you, to know that, you know,
this is who you are, and yet you
weren't really being allowed to
kind of choose how you dealt
with the fact that you were
blind?
>> IYENGAR: Well, it was certainly
difficult to pretend.
I mean, it was certainly, at
times, stressful.
>> HINOJOSA: I can't even
imagine what that is like.
>> IYENGAR: Well, you do start to develop
some interesting tricks, which
actually have helped me over the
years.
>> HINOJOSA: For example?
>> IYENGAR: Well, now I can't get away
with them, but for example, if I
would drop something I would
pretend as if I didn't hear it,
so that somebody else would
notice and pick it up.
>> HINOJOSA: Oh.
>> IYENGAR: And I did pick up a lot of
tricks that actually do still
help me.
I did develop skills on sensing
wind and knowing when there was
a turn, because of the wind
change, or when there was a
building because of the wind
change.
I mean, it did force me to
develop certain skill sets that
I probably would not have
developed otherwise.
>> HINOJOSA: So you basically
say that when you were growing
up, you were living, you say,
two lives.
>> IYENGAR: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: At least two lives.
I mean, speaking two languages,
right?
Two cultural languages, and
actually, if you add blindness,
that would be almost a third
one, right?
>> IYENGAR: Yeah, I guess you could say
that.
I do think as a blind person you
end up becoming cognizant of the
different kind of... set of
issues and lifestyle that... you
know, there is the sort of
sighted world versus the blind
world, I suppose.
>> HINOJOSA: But if you came
from a background where choice
was something that was not
encouraged, necessarily, or
certainly not... you know, it's
not as if your choice is the
freedom of the Sikh people.
No, no, no, it's not like that.
So why did you end up being
fascinated with the art of
choosing?
>> IYENGAR: Well, I think it was because
of the fact that, you know, I
think had I been born just an
American, or been born just a
Sikh and grown up in India, I
don't think I would have been.
Because then you know what's,
quote, the right way of
thinking, because you don't have
to debate about it.
And whereas because I was
growing up in two different
cultures simultaneously, and I
was imbibing both, as an
impressionable child growing up,
it wasn't obvious to me which
one I was supposed to follow.
You know, whereas for my
parents, they could be more
clear in the head and say,
"Well, no, the American way is
clearly wrong."
And the Americans were very sure
that the Indian way was clearly
wrong.
I mean, how dare somebody choose
who I marry?
I mean, Americans always thought
that was horrific.
But for me, both systems sort of
made sense, you know?
I saw my parents, I saw my aunts
and uncles.
They didn't look like they were
horrific marriages.
And I saw my American friends'
parents, and they didn't look
like awful marriages either.
So then you were sort of
thinking to yourself, "Oh, okay,
so how am I supposed to choose?
What's the correct way to make
this choice?"
And I think it was that internal
conflict that essentially...
because I had to constantly
engage in that conflict, that
got me interested in choice.
When I actually started to do
research, I think I was just
naturally drawn to the questions
about choice.
>> HINOJOSA: Sheena, let's talk
a little bit about how people
choose, depending on their
culture or even their... where
they come from, their countries.
How does it differ?
So, for example, choice in,
let's say, America, versus,
let's say, choice in a Latin
American country versus choice
in a predominantly Muslim
country.
>> IYENGAR: Mm-hmm.
You know, we... from the moment
we're born, we're taught how to
think about choice.
And we're taught this explicitly
and implicitly in our culture.
So, you know, say, as an
American, I'm always... it's
always really funny when you go
to the grocery store and you see
these moms asking their
two-year-old kids, "And what
kind of cereal would you like,
honey?"
>> HINOJOSA: But we're told that
we're... you know, as parents in
this country, we are told...
>> IYENGAR: Absolutely.
>> HINOJOSA: ..."Give your
children that choice, make them
into good choosers."
>> IYENGAR: Yes.
And we ask our children at the
age of four, "What do you want
to be when you grow up?"
And it's not that we're saying
that we trust your choice.
We're saying implicitly, "We
understand you're going to
change your mind."
But we're saying, you know,
"Look, these are the kinds of
things you need to learn to
know.
You need to know what kind of
cereal you want, you need to
know and figure out who you're
going to grow up to be, and what
you're going to do."
Now, by contrast, when you go to
other cultures, that's not
always the message that they're
given.
So, you know, say, in many
collectivist cultures, whether
they be in Latin American
culture, Asian cultures, whether
it be Japan or China or India,
there the message is, you know,
"You've got to respect your
parents," or, "You need to
respect your god."
And, you know, your parents
should be thought of as the ones
that are the main decision
makers, at least until you are
equipped and experienced enough
to be able to take on that
quote-unquote responsibility,
right?
So for example, you know, kids
are not asked in India or China
or Japan, "What are you going to
be when you grow up?"
It's understood that your
parents are going to help make
that decision.
>> HINOJOSA: But there's a big
trust element there, right?
>> IYENGAR: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: And trust is
central.
>> IYENGAR: Yes, I think so.
>> HINOJOSA: So...
>> IYENGAR: And in fact, it's interesting
you mentioned trust, and you
also asked me about Latin
Americans.
When you look at employees... I
did a big study with Citibank
employees.
And we looked at... so say for
example if you compare Latino
employees in Mexico, Brazil,
Argentina, versus Asian
employees, Taiwan, Singapore,
Hong Kong, et cetera, versus
Americans, and you look at in
which condition are they most
likely to perform well,
Americans perform best when they
feel their manager is giving
them choice, is empowering them
to make decisions, giving them
autonomy.
That's very important to
Americans.
Latinos, I mean, it's not a bad
thing, they're not getting mad
or upset if their manager says,
you know, "You can decide when
you take your vacation, when you
do your breaks, how you get your
job done."
What matters to them most is if
they feel their manager cares
about them.
Is this manager somebody they
can trust, that they have good
rapport with?
That is more important than
whether they get choice or no
choice.
And similarly, with Asians, what
you see is that for them it's
not whether they get choice.
If anything, they want
direction.
They want to feel that their
manager knows what's going on,
can give them direction and
guidance to make sure that the
job gets done well.
So they're all headed for the
same end goal, which is we want
to do our job well.
But the way they feel that you
get there is through very
different processes.
>> HINOJOSA: I think about
something my mother told me.
My mom was born in Mexico,
married at 17 to my father, and
for the first part of her life
was a housewife.
And I remember my mom saying to
me... I guess I must have been,
you know, a young professional,
just finding my way in the
world, clearly not on the path
to get immediately married.
And she just said, "Ay, majita,
you know, I worry so much about
the young women today in
America.
You have so many choices, so
many things to choose from."
She's like, "I didn't have any
choices.
I knew what was going to
happen."
And she said, "Sometimes I see
that you're so worried about the
decisions you're going to make.
Ay, majita, I'm so sad."
She was almost like, "It's rough
having so many things to choose
from."
And I was kind of like... yeah,
I understood her perspective, in
the sense that, yeah, it's hard,
you know?
I mean, sometimes in America we
have too much to choose from.
And that's something that you
kind of have spent a lot of time
looking at.
>> IYENGAR: Absolutely, yes.
I'm... you know, I started that
research kind of by accident.
I was looking at cultural
differences between Asian and
Anglo American children, because
I felt that, well, you know, as
an Asian you're taught the
benefits of having others
choose, whereas as an American
you're taught the benefits of
choosing for yourself.
And so I began to look at Asian
and Anglo American children, and
I was trying to show, or wanted
to test the hypothesis, anyway,
that Asian children didn't care
as much about choice.
And I brought these kids into a
room, and they were little
kids, and I gave them either a
situation where they had lots of
toys to choose from, or just one
toy.
And I couldn't get anybody to
play with the toys when they had
a lot of choices to choose from.
And I couldn't get it.
I was like, "Wait a minute.
Everybody's supposed to love
choice.
At least the Americans are."
And I kept adding more and more
choice.
I figured I was just giving them
the wrong set of toys, we
weren't giving them exciting
enough toys.
And I kept giving them more and
more toys.
And finally I just decided to
give them six toys.
And that's when I began to see
the difference between... at
least for Americans, where for
the American kids, if they had a
choice of six, they were more
motivated, and they played more
than if they were just simply
told what toy to play with.
And that was what really got me
started in thinking about
whether there were some negative
consequences to offering people
more and more and more choice.
>> HINOJOSA: And when you put
that down in writing in a book,
The Art of Choosing, oh, my
gosh.
There was, you know, "Just wait
a second.
What is Sheena Iyengar saying?
She is saying that in America,
where we value having the
freedom of choice about
everything..." and Sheena in her
experiment is saying, "Give
people too many things to choose
from, and they become
overwhelmed."
And you were called lots of
different things.
But some people said, "You are
criticizing the heart of who we
are as Americans."
>> IYENGAR: Yes.
In fact I think it was Rush
Limbaugh that referred to me as
a "pointy headed intellectual
that didn't know the first thing
about the marketplace."
>> HINOJOSA: And what do you say
to that?
I mean, were you taken aback a
little bit by the criticism when
you were just saying, "Look, I'm
a social scientist, I conducted
experiments..." you know, the
jam problem.
People may have heard about the
jam problem, which is your
experiment of putting jams in a
supermarket, and whether or not
people would choose a preferred
jam, and if they had too many
choices, they ended up perhaps
not ending up buying one of the
jams.
But if you gave them three
choices, then they would usually
say, "Out of these three, I can
see which one I like, and I
think I'm going to go buy it."
>> IYENGAR: Yeah.
I mean, to be honest with you,
when I first ran the experiment,
I didn't have an agenda.
I didn't have a particular
ideology that I was trying to
promote.
I just ran the study, and I was
just as surprised as anybody
else was.
And then when Rush Limbaugh went
out there and critiqued me, and
a lot of people kind of got
scared by the finding, and then
there were other people that
sort of identified it as the
problem of the century, I have
to admit, I was taken aback,
because I hadn't realized the
implications of it.
And it's only as I've been doing
more and more studies over the
years and looking at the
consequences of offering people
more choice, and I have to say,
other colleagues... it's now
become a whole industry of
research, looking at the effects
of offering people more choice.
It's only as time has gone by
that I've realized this is a
much bigger problem than just
choosing jam.
>> HINOJOSA: What is the bigger
problem?
>> IYENGAR: Well, I think the recent book
Freedom by Jonathan Franzen
does a really good job of
illustrating the big problem, I
think, in our life-- that we've
essentially... because we can...
we have the, quote, right to do
whatever we want at any point in
time, that we have lost sight of
having that formula or even a
criteria by which to judge how
we're supposed to live.
And that makes it really
complicated.
How are we supposed to know what
we want?
How are we supposed to know
whether what we have chosen is
what we should have chosen, what
will do us well in the long run?
And that at times makes us
depressed.
>> HINOJOSA: Is there a sense
that... the moment in history
that we're living in this
country right now, there is so
much uncertainty about
everything.
>> IYENGAR: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: I mean, everything.
And therefore... and there are
so many different ways in which,
you know, if you're unemployed,
how are you going to do this,
you know, establishing a new
career.
I mean, we are overwhelmed with
a kind of a crisis, and then
lots of possibilities.
And you say that it can be
depressing.
>> IYENGAR: It can be depressing, yes.
Because I think in the end,
while it seems really
motivating, this ability to have
a blank sheet of paper and jot
down every single line and every
single letter and comma, you
know, in terms of the story of
our life, that is more
motivating in theory than in
practice.
Because that can be quite
paralyzing when you realize you
have to write every single
letter and dot every single I.
In a sense, having at least some
basic script to work off of, so
that you have some certainty,
some sense of stability or a
rudder, is actually more
motivating in practice.
>> HINOJOSA: And you also found
that in terms of religions,
conservative orthodox religions,
you actually found that even
though they are more rigid in
terms of how people live their
lives, that actually people who
come from those more
conservative fundamentalist
religious perspectives are
actually happier.
>> IYENGAR: They are.
You know, and I have to admit I
was surprised by that research,
too.
You know, I had grown up Sikh,
and I was looking for freedom.
There was no doubt about that
when I went to college-- I was
looking for freedom.
And the first thing I did was
cut my hair.
>> HINOJOSA: I was going to say,
the first thing you did was cut
your hair.
And it was...
>> IYENGAR: It was not good.
I think... you know, my mom
didn't talk to me for quite some
time after that.
>> HINOJOSA: How much time?
>> IYENGAR: I don't even remember, so...
I try to block such things out
of my memory bank.
But... and I've certainly had a
number of cousins that were
disowned for the same sin.
But, you know, so I was doing
this study, and I assumed that
religion would actually be
negative in terms of our well
being, that it would actually
make us more depressed.
Because after all, it was taking
away your freedom.
But I found the opposite.
And, you know, what that then,
in a sense, led me to start
thinking about and researching,
was this idea that having some
set of rules and guidelines, as
long as you can buy into them
and believe in them, can
actually help create a sense of
certainty, some stability,
reduces some amount of
ambiguity.
And that frees up your mind, it
frees up your... you know, your
efforts, to just focus on a few
choices that you can do well at.
>> HINOJOSA: So what you write
is that in your research you've
actually found that if you have
people who are suffering from a
very severe illness, their
choice to look at this in a
positive way, or to believe that
they can overcome maybe even a
terminal illness, actually makes
a big difference in their
lives-- in the length of their
lives, and in how they live
those lives.
How can we learn... and I know
everybody's saying, "Well, I
want to know how to do that."
How do you learn how to think
positive and make positive
choices when maybe you're not
feeling so positive, and you
don't feel like the choices are
all positive ones?
How do you learn how to be a
person who makes choice from a
positive place?
>> IYENGAR: Well, I guess it goes back to
how we started when we were
talking about fate, chance and
choice, right?
You could interpret your illness
as being about destiny, "It's
now time for me to die," chance,
"I got unlucky, so it's over
now," or in terms of choice.
And you think about it in terms
of choice, that means, "Okay,
this is a bad lot.
Here are the bad things.
Here are the things I can't
control.
But what are the things that I
can do which will give me
control?"
And if you direct your mind
towards the things that you can
control, that you can choose,
then it can improve your mood.
>> HINOJOSA: Control is a
central part of this, right?
Believing that you have the
ability to control something of
the environment around choice.
>> IYENGAR: Yes.
And, you know, I don't want to
confuse people when I say... on
the one hand I'm saying, "Look,
too much choice is bad," on the
other hand I'm saying, "You'd
better see your life in terms of
choice."
And what I mean there is that
what's most important is the
belief that you have control.
And what gives you that belief
is by having choice that you can
understand, that you can take
control over.
If you have choices that you
don't understand, that you don't
know how to deal with, that
actually makes you feel less in
control.
So what's key here is the
feeling of control.
>> IYENGAR: So how can we learn, Sheena,
to become effective choosers?
>> IYENGAR: I recently wrote an afterword
for my book to give people tips
on how they can become more
effective at using some of the
things I talked about in the
book.
So if I would say there was one
thing you had to choose in order
to become a more effective
chooser, that's to become more
choosy about choice, about when
you make a choice.
So...
>> HINOJOSA: About when.
>> IYENGAR: About when.
And when are those moments that
you are going to put in the
effort to make a choice?
I think we have to become more
choosy about that.
One of the things that I have my
students do, typically on the
last day of class, is I have
them jot down all the things
that are important to them.
And they can make that list, I
tell them, as long as they want.
They can say, oh, work-life
balance, making a lot of money.
Whatever they want, they can jot
it down.
Then I tell them, "Now, cross
off everything other than the
top five that you absolutely
under no condition,
circumstances, can live without.
Of course, at that point they
want to negotiate with me and
make it seven or nine or ten.
And I always stick to my guns--
it has to be no more than five.
And once you get to those five,
that is your compass.
That's your compass for knowing
only choices related to those
things that are really, really
at the top of your priority
list, are the ones that you will
put the effort of making a
really informed choice.
Because choice is not purely
fun.
It's an effortful activity, and
we should recognize it as such.
To get the most out of choice,
you should be putting effort
into that.
>> HINOJOSA: Well, Sheena, thank
you for letting us understand
that we can make a lot of
choices about how we move
forward.
It's been a beautiful interview.
Thank you so much for joining
us.
>> IYENGAR: Thank you.
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