Maricel Presilla

Q:  Maricel Presilla, you are, like, the Grand Dame of Latin-American cooking. You have two restaurants in Hoboken, New Jersey, and, of course, you’re a food columnist for the Miami Herald. Welcome to our program. So what would you say, if people are kind of tuning in, you know, what would be the definition of what really gives Latin-American cuisine its title? What is it?

A:  I think it’s diversity, it’s intensity of flavor, it’s harmony, too. And it’s also, you know, a very interesting history. You know, we are the uh ultimate region for fusion. When the Spaniards and the Portuguese came, they had brought a world of fusion with them.

Q:  And then, of course, there was--

A:  -- Christians and Jews and Muslims, and they encountered, you know, very advanced civilizations. And then, later on, you know, you get Europeans from all over, you get Italians, and also the Chinese who came in great numbers--

Q:  -- People forget about that, yeah.

A:  -- starting in the 19^th century. So we are the ultimate fusion, and our food reflects these varied influences from all over.

Q:  But you have taken this idea of food and really gone into it deeply. I mean you are--people don’t know this, but you’re an academic. You started as a professor.

A:  Yes, I am a historian. I started Medieval Spanish history, European history.

Q:  And cultural anthropology, as well.

A:  And cultural anthropology. So essentially, what happened to me is that I’m very curious. All historians are curious by nature. So I approach my hobby, which was cooking, you know, with the same seriousness that I approach history. So obviously, I started investigating. And what was something for pleasure became a profession. Because once you start digging in so deeply, that’s what happens. It’s very dangerous. It’s like me with gardening. I love to garden. Every year I plant all kinds of wonderful flowers--

Q:  -- In New Jersey, let’s just say--

A:  -- But also, I have expanded. For example, this year, I planted 150 types of chilis. And I became so interested in gardening, that I started to working on cacao and Mexican vanilla. And the result of both endeavors was a very deep article I wrote for Savour magazine on Mexican vanilla, and also a book on cacao and chocolate, that I did for Ten Speed Press in 2001, which I think was groundbreaking in its scope.

Q:  See this is where you absolutely get me, because chocolate, to me, is the ultimate, dark chocolate.

A:  Dark chocolate, deep dark chocolate.

Q:  And you have basically, now, you’ve written this book on the history of cacao. There’s a whole way in which we should now be learning how to eat chocolate, am I right?

A:  Well, I think it’s about tasting many types of chocolate. It’s about really taking the time to smell, taking the time to savor every bite. But also, it’s about learning about the origin of the beans, knowing about percentages. I mean the whole issue of tasting chocolate has become very complex. And a good place to start is my book. It’s called The New Taste of Chocolate. When I wrote it in 2001, there were very few books that talked about varieties and the relationship between cacao and flavor. And I did that. I traveled all over. I went to Venezuela, I explored, and I went looking for criollo, which is, you know, the finest type of cacao. I’m very proud of this book. But yes, there is a whole world of chocolate, and it will take us a whole program to talk about it.

Q:  Well see, we’d have to do that program with a lot of taste-testing [simultaneous conversation] frankly is we need to do. So when did this kind of—You grew up in Cuba. You leave the country in about 1970. But where did this all start for you? I mean were you cooking in the kitchen with your family?

A:  Yes.

Q:  Was there a kind of tradition there?

A:  Growing up in Cuba in the 1950s, I was surrounded by great cooks on both sides of my family, with very different types of cook. On the maternal side, my aunts were very refined cooks. You know, they were bourgeois, bourgeois cooks.

Q:  And what did that mean in a Cuban kitchen?

A:  Well, it means refining traditional dishes, you know, making them lighter, making the presentations to be more attractive. On my paternal side, my grandmother was born in a cacao farm in the mountains of Baracoa. And her cooking was very earthy. She was in command of the kitchen. The food was earthy, it was robust. She would make fantastic soups, like ajiaco, which is our quintessential Cuban dish.

Q:  And people who don’t know ajiaco--

A:  Well it’s a big soup, but laden with tubers, you know, with yucca, malanga, and all kinds of meat--

Q:  And, you know, it’s not often that I hear people calling them--

A:  -- including smoked beef.

Q:  But it’s not often that I find people calling them “tubers.” You know, I mean, for me, it’s yucca--

A:  -- yucca, malanga--

Q:  -- batata, malanga, ñame-- these are all words that, if you’re from the Caribbean, you know well. But, if you--

A:  -- Because those are our staples.

Q:  Right, but, for example, in Mexico, where I was born, you didn’t hear these terms.

A:  You’re from Mexico City, are you?

Q:  Yes.

A:  Well, if you were from Veracruz, you would eat a lot of yucca.

Q:  Right. But now, kind of what you’ve realized, is that there’s a lot of these kind of cross-pollination that’s happening.

A:  Oh, absolutely.

Q:  And it’s fascinating.

A:  A new Latin America has been created in this country, so we are all learning from each other. That’s why this whole idea of Pan-Latin-- Pan-Latin cooking is very natural to us living in this country. It’s not as natural if you were living, let’s say, in Peru, or Argentina. If I were to write the book that I just finished writing for Norton, which is a book about the cuisines of all of Latin America, let’s say in Argentina, I wouldn’t be able to get the Mexican chiles. If I were in Mexico, I wouldn’t be able to get the Andean chiles. But here, I was able to get everything I needed for testing the recipes of my book--

Q:  -- everything?

A:  -- from my local supermarket, and delivered--

Q:  No!

A:  -- delivered to my door, which is amazing, everything I need.

Q:  You couldn’t have done that 10 years ago, though.

A:  Ten years ago, perhaps, but not 15 years ago. Things have changed dramatically. I train with a Peruvian chef who owned a restaurant called The Ballroom in Manhattan. And I remember him trying to recreate Peruvian dishes. And, instead of using ají panca, which is an Andean pepper, he had to use--

Q:  What dose ají panca look like?

A:  Ají panca--  Well it’s a red, dry chile.

Q:  Okay, so longish?

A:  It’s longish. And so he would use juajillo, or he would use ancho--

Q:  -- okay, which is a little bit bigger.

A:  Because he could not find panca, and he could not find the ají mirasol, which is a dried yellow pepper, which is very important in Peruvian cooking. But now, when I go to the supermarket, I can buy those peppers, you know, almost everywhere.

Q:  So it’s not even that you have to go to-- Because, of course, in New York, you have those amazing food markets that are bringing food from everywhere. You can actually just go to your--

A:  Exactly, but I have to say that I’m even hokier, because I don’t live in New York, I live in New Jersey. I live in Weehoken, right across Midtown Manhattan. And the markets in the Hispanic area near us, which is Union City, are amazing, because they’re catering to a very varied Latin clientele. So I can find anything I need from the Andes, anything I need from Mexico. So it’s very easy. And also, I have found seeds, and I have found seedlings, you know, of all these different peppers. So this year, as I said, I had 150 types of chiles from Mexico, from the Andes, from Central America, and it was extraordinary.

Q:  And you were cooking-- you were basically growing this to use it in your restaurants?

A:  Oh yes, to use in my restaurant. I pickle them, I made salsas, you know, I did everything-- I stuffed them. I still have a freezer full of rocotos from Bolivia and Peru and fresh ají amarillofrom Peru, extraordinary things.

Q:  So is it about-- because you like to talk about, kind of, two trends. There’s the traditional trend, and then there’s the kind of, you know, creative or, you know, cocina de autor you know, your kind of personal style.

A:  Well everybody is an autor, you know-- I haven’t seen any--

Q:  I’m definitely an autor--

A:  Exactly. [simultaneous conversation] you know, that goes to the kitchen doesn’t change something, according to his or her taste. But there is traditional cuisine treated with enormous respect, and this is what I do. I think I’m creative, but I’m very respectful of the flavor palates of each particular region I’m working with. And I don’t add extraneous ingredients. I might change a presentation, I might make the food lighter, like my aunts did back in Cuba. But I do not play with the essential features of the cuisine. I use very natural products. So I don’t take short cuts, which I think is very important. If I want very thick coconut milk, I grate the coconut myself. It might seem crazy, but there is an enormous difference in taste. If I want a beautiful tamalmade with fresh corn, I would grate the corn on a standing grater. I would take the time, because it’s a miniscule step that will have an enormous bearing on flavor. So the idea is to treat tradition with respect. There is a nueva cocinathat is very interesting.

Q:  And what kind of food does--

A:  Well, it’s--

Q:  Because I got to tell you, to be honest, there are some times, when-- and I’m not a big foodie, because I’m raising kids, and I’m working, and all that. But there are some times when I’ll go into a restaurant, Latin American or something, and it’s a mixture of things that, in my life, I ever thought--

A:  -- I know, you have been attacked. That’s the way I feel sometimes.

Q:  You know, I find it interesting. I’m kind of like “Well this is an interesting taste. And I never would have thought of mixing this with that.” And it’s creative, but I got to tell you, it doesn’t really remind me of anything. It doesn’t quite say anything. It’s interesting taste, but sometimes I think, “God, it’s too odd.” You know, it’s just--

A:  Well, when it’s done with respect and intelligence, it can be very exciting.

Q:  So talk about what kinds of foods that would be, for example.

A:  It has to do with the chef. It has to do with the chef’s education. It has to do with the chef’s understanding of his or her own cuisine.
when the chef is all those things, then the re-creation of a particular dish can be fascinating, can be interesting. But when the chef is not educated, hasn’t traveled enough, is not respectful, and is trying to impress, the results are awful.

Q:  So give me an example, of something that you say, “Okay, this is just-- They’re calling themselves traditional Latin American cuisine, but it really isn’t.”

A:  Well, drowning-- drowning things that should not-- you know, that should be treated lightly. For example, drowning them with cilantro, or taking, for example, as an illustration, like a Cuban black bean soup, and adding cilantro to it, when in reality, it doesn’t need it. It’s not a Mexican black bean soup.

Q:  You don’t really use cilantro in Cuban--

A:  -- And then calling it-- having, you know, the nerve to call it “Cuban black bean soup” on the menu, which is a problem.

Q:  And I bet you let that be known.

A:  Or adding curry to something from Bolivia, and just having the nerve, again, to say “This is a Bolivian dish.” I mean it happens a lot. There is a lot of influence, now, from Asia. And now Latin chefs feel obliged, you know, to play with the Asian card. If you were Peruvian, well that would come natural to you, because obviously, the Chinese and Japanese influence in Peru, you know, is very strong. But just, you know, when you overdo it, you know, when you play with it to the point of transforming something that is beautiful, inherently beautiful, into something totally unrecognizable, well I really don’t care about it, I really don’t.

Q:  But, at the same time, as somebody who has researched, you have all of this historical documentation, I’m sure that you want to play with food, right?

A:  I want to play with food, it’s true. And I am very creative. But I do find that some of the historical recipes that I work with are so fascinating by themselves.

Q:  Okay, give me an example of a couple of those things that are just perfect, untouched in the kind of--

A:  Well, just a very simple example, I was doing an article for The Herald, actually, a few weeks ago, about my father, my father’s memories of food.

Q:  And you mentioned, in that article, some amazing titles of food that I had never heard of before.

A:  Exactly, things that my father remembered eating, you know, at my grandmother’s farm, for example. But while I was doing the research, talking to my father--my father was at the hospital at the time-- talking to him, and just getting recipes from him, I was also reading old Cuban cookbooks, and finding a treasure trove of recipes that I wanted to duplicate. And I didn’t want to change them. So I found this recipe for a malangafufu. Now a fufuis a West African tuber mash, or it could be a plantain mash.

Q:  It’s a kind of grate-- it’s something that you grate?

A:  No, it’s you boil the tuber, the root vegetable. It could be either-- It could be yucca, it could be malanga, it could be yams. Actually, the traditional West African fufuwas made with the white or the yellow yam, which is a very large tuber. But I found a recipe for malanga fufu. Malangais this amazing tuber that tastes like truffles, has a very earthy flavor. It was just very simple. But the malangaballs were then cooked in a sofrito, in a tomato sofritothat was enriched with a base of sesame seeds. And I thought that that was extraordinary. So I made a variation-- I did, actually, the actual recipe with the sesame base. And then I did another variation, simply sprinkling the beautiful ivory-white malanga fufuballs with the sesame, toasted sesame. I thought that was amazing, simplest recipe, but with such incredible flavor. I like to work with things like that.

Q:  So is there, now, when you talk about this new reality of having so many Latin American immigrants living within, you know, the same city, the same country, the same state, so there’s a Latino cuisine, right, that’s different than a Latin-American cuisine?

A:  Well I’ve heard you talk about the distinction between Latino and Latin-American.

Q:  Well, because Latinos don’t exist in Latin-American. They’re Latin-American, right? I mean they become--

A:  Well, you know, I don’t use the term “Latino,” to be honest. I like to use the term “Latin-American.”

Q:  So even in the cooking--

A:  -- Yes, you know, we are the heirs of this incredibly large empire that was then fragmented into countries. But we share, you know, a commonality through language, through music, through religion. That’s who we are.

Q:  So what does that look like as the Latino immigrant experience, in terms of cooking here? And we have to be clear that there are people who, you know, they have a hard time finding great produce in their local supermarket.

A:  I understand. But I have to say that things have changed dramatically. Well my experience, of course, is that of a privileged chef in a region that is very rich in Latin-American markets, that have everything that I need. But I have to say that, you know, what you cannot find in Latin markets is being grown in this country. I mean quinoa, for example, you know, grows in the cooler areas in the United States, like, you know, Colorado. And purple, blue potatoes, also, things that sometimes are hard to find, even in markets in Lima, you can find here-- chiles, all over the place. If you go to Miami, you go to the Red Lands, you know, south of Miami, at Homestead, you find all these incredible Hispanic-Caribbean tubers. Fruits like mamey, for example, grow, you know, in areas south of Miami. And it’s extraordinary in quality.

Q:  But, of course, you know that, let’s say Miami, now, you have a huge Mexican and Puerto Rican population. I’m Mexican married to a Dominican. So we suddenly-- You know, there’ll be, kind of mix ups that happen in our home, you know, that suddenly you’re having yucca with tacos.

A:  Well I think that’s wonderful. And that’s what the Pan-Latin concept, you know, represents. For example, one of my restaurants, the one that I call Zafra, which is kind of like a Cuban diner-- it’s a cafeteria-type of restaurant. But it’s really-- you know, it’s very noble and true. And the heart is Cuban. But then I have these fantastic Mexican cooks, and I’ve learned so much from them. And also, I have taught them things about Mexico that they didn’t know, because they come from very small communities of, let’s say, in Oaxaca. And I’ve taught them foods from Veracruz and other regions from Mexico-- Michoacán [simultaneous conversation]

Q:  Mexico is huge-- oh my gosh, right.

A:  I wrote a book about Michoacán. I adore Lake Pátzcuaro, and I taught them things about Michoacán. And they are very grateful. So we have created-- you know, we sort of recreated Mexican cooking. So I have Mexican dishes, I have Peruvian dishes. But it’s not that I am adding elements of Mexican cooking into my Peruvian food, not at all. But you can create a meal that starts with a Mexican enchilada. And then you can continue in having something from Peru ...(inaudible) from Northern Peru. And you can have tamalfrom Cuba, that is authentic and wonderful, made with fresh corn. And you can have a Mexican tamalwith mole, you know, which is made with nixtamalizedcorn, which is corn treated with lime. The taste is completely different.

Q:  -- completely different. In fact, you have this fascination with, for example, tamalesor ceviche--

A:  Oh yes.

Q:  -- which is that it changes in every different region.

A:  Absolutely. You know, the tamalis a quintessential Latin-American food. It starts, you know, as the Spaniards got to know, in Cuba, you know, as something made with fresh corn and wrapped and cooked in corn and the leaves of corn. But then in Mexico, they found different kinds of tamales. And particularly, you know, they were impressed by the tamalesmade with the nixtamalized corn, with the corn treated with lime, which changes the flavor, changes the--

Q:  -- the consistency--

A:  -- the consistency of the dough. But also, even in Mexico, you find very delicate tamalesmade with fresh corn. For example, if you go to Lake Pátzcuaro, you have uchepos. Have you tasted uchepos?

Q:  No, but I’m feeling like I need to go to--

A:  -- Uchepos, made with this white corn that is most tender. And, you know, you see the milky juice, you know, seeping from the tamale. They’re extraordinary. They also have something called corundas, which are wrapped-- not with the husk of the corn, but with the leaves of the corn, corundas...(inaudible).

Q:  I’m suddenly remembering that there are, for example, tamalesin Dominican Republic made with yucca

A:Exactly.

Q: --which are, there’s one person—

A:Yes.

Q:--in Santo Domingo who makes them.

A: With yucca.

Q: And you can only find them from her. And they’re amazing.

A:  And also, when in Puerto Rico, there are pasteles, which is a type of tamal, which is made with plantains and other tubers. And in Cuba, you know, a small island, Baracoa is famous for a type of tamalcalled bacán, which is made with plantains. If you go down to South America, you find tamaleswhich are made with rice, the juanes, the juanesof the Peruvian Amazon. So also in Peru, you find these ...(inaudible), which are made with fresh corn. So the world of tamalesis extraordinary.

Q:  And can we find all of these different tamaleshere in the United States?

A:  Oh yes, oh yes.

Q:  Absolutely?

A:  Absolutely.

Q:  Homemade?

A:  Homemade in restaurants, absolutely.

Q:  Because you love street food, as well.

A:  Oh I adore street food.

Q:  Oh so do I, but it’s the thing that, you know, you can just get a little sick here and there, if you're not careful.

A:  Well, you know something? I have been extremely lucky. Because, you know, I try not to eat raw things. I try things that are hot, just fresh from the frying pan or the steamer. Tamales, I love tamales.

Q:  Street food tamales?

A:  Yes, I love chicharrones, pork cracklings. My favorite chicharrónis from Cartagena de Indias--

Q:  -- in Colombia--

A:  -- in Colombia, which is this amazing fat chicharroneswith beautiful patacones, which are, like, you know, our tostones.

Q:  Yeah.

A:  My favorite food. And also, arepas, the arepasthere, ...oozing cheese. You know, Cartagena has fantastic arepasand also Barranquilla, oh my God, delicious.

Q:  But you know what’s fascinating is that, in New York sometimes, when I’m walking around in Spanish Harlem, now, I’ll get the street food which is-- you know, there’s nothing really particular about it, it’s elote, corn, and then they just kind of put that mixture of a little bit of mayonnaise and parmesan cheese, and chili and lime.

A:  Exactly, that’s delicious, delicious. You know what I do? I do that in my restaurant. Come corn season, I do it in my restaurant. I do it-- It looks more beautiful the way I present it, you know, it’s just it has a little bit more cache, but it’s a street food that I have glorified. And, of course, you know, I get the best corn, I make my own mayonnaise, I use fantastic cheese for it. So I actually even do my own chili powder.

Q:  Wow.

A:  Yes, I dry my chiles, yes.

Q:  You have the time to do this? See I’m not able to have the time.

A:  Well it’s not a question that I have the time, there’s no other option for me, you understand? This is the way I cook. And also, because my restaurant is very-- my restaurants are small, I don’t have much refrigeration. So I don’t do a lot of the preparations that chefs do ahead of time. I don’t have the space for that. So my food is fresher.

Q:  So what is the lesson as this country becomes more Latin-American, Latino, in cities across the country? What is the lesson for us? What should we be looking for? What should we be thinking about as we-- You know, I mean there are fast food Mexican restaurants left and right. But what do you want us to take away? What’s the learning experience that we need to be?

A:  I want people to be careful with details. I want people to respect this food. I don’t want people to take shortcuts that are totally unnecessary, to use fresh limes, for example, instead of some chemical stuff, you know, for people to take the time to do the small things that make a difference. For example, if they need to color something yellow, why use a chemical, when it’s so easy to infuse olive oil, you know, or other fat with achioteseeds? It’s so simple, and it’s so natural. Why go for the chemical?

Q:  How do you--You know, these lessons that you want us to learn, how do you figure that that intersects with a faster pace, immigrants with not a lot of money to spend in the kitchen--

A:  But those are inexpensive steps, and they are not time-consuming. But they make a difference.

Q:  So your next big project is that you’re opening a food store.

A:  I’m opening a food store right next to Zafra, where I’m planning-- I’m going to have a big kitchen, where I’m going to start teaching Latin-American food. Actually, the idea of the space was that I wanted to do a Latin-American center. Because I always felt that Latin chefs were very disconnected. I mean we are not a community. In countries like, even Venezuela, I mean there are centers, you know, where young people go to learn traditional food. In Peru, I mean there is a community of chefs that they have contact with each other. I always felt that we needed to do something like that. And maybe, through this store kind of school, I will get to do something like that, to, you know, unify the Latin chefs working in this country. But, you know, the most immediate obvious, you know, reason I’m doing this, is because I want to sell Latin-American ingredients, I want to sell books, I want to sell Latin-American crafts, everything that has to do with a Latin kitchen.

Q:  Selling us our tradition back.

A:  Exactly.

Q:  Thank you so much, Maricel Presilla. Good luck with that. And thanks for joining us.

A:  Gracias, María. 11:48:42:09

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