Transcript
>> HINOJOSA: As shifting
demographics change America's
museums, one institution is
wrestling with how to showcase
the artwork of all Latinos.
With us today, the director of
New York City's El Museo Del
Barrio, Julian Zugazagoitia.
I'm Maria Hinojosa, this is One
On One.
Julian Zugazagoitia, nice to
have you here as the director of
El Museo Del Barrio, from New
York City.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Thank you for your
invitation.
>> HINOJOSA: So you are born in
Mexico City, then you spend
about 20 years living in Europe,
and then in 1999, you come to
New York to work at the
Guggenheim, and then you're
named to head up this museum
called El Museo Del Barrio.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Correct.
>> HINOJOSA: So El Museo Del
Barrio started kind of as a
Puerto Rican institution, very
grass roots, very
community-based...
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Correct.
>> HINOJOSA: ...and it's had to
change its mission.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: We've had to more than change
it.
We have amplified its mission,
so over the course of the last
40 years-- and it's... we're
celebrating our 40th anniversary
with a big expansion of El
Museo, a big renovation of El
Museo.
And over the 40 years, what has
changed is also the profile of
the US as perhaps the most
diverse Latino country.
>> HINOJOSA: Because basically,
40 years ago, El Barrio, Spanish
Harlem, was predominantly-- it
had been Italian at one point--
but it was predominantly a
Puerto Rican community.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Correct, and El Barrio has
always been a place of
immigrants, and I think that is
also something very, very, very
imporant to notice is that that
part of the Upper East Side of
Manhattan has always been very
welcoming.
And before Italian, it was
Irish, and so it has that
tradition.
But definitely since the '40s,
Puerto Ricans started making El
Barrio their home, and then the
name, therefore, El Barrio.
And it is very, very... a sense
of the place where they would
gather.
Then there's the creation of
organizations and institutions
like La Marqueta where they
would shop, and so it is full of
history.
And El Museo emerges, also, of
those social movements in the
'60s-- in the late '60s--
where different communities were
looking and researching for
their own roots and to be
respected for their
contributions.
And definitely, the artistic
contributions is what the people
around El Museo Del Barrio were
fighting for.
>> HINOJOSA: Because at that
time-- I mean, we're talking
1969...
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: ...the throes of
the Civil Rights Movement across
the country...
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: ...and in New York,
the Puerto Rican community
basically felt that they were
excluded from many parts of the
city, but certainly in terms of
a cultural expression.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Correct.
>> HINOJOSA: And so it's born
from this basically grassroots
artists saying, "We want a
space; we want to be visible; we
want to be recognized."
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: I think... exactly.
The climate was that, and
there's one artist that was
approached by the Department of
Education in those years that is
the son of Puerto Rican parents
that has already gone to art
school at Pratt-- so downtown--
and who's starting to lead a
very prominent international
career.
His name is Raphael
MontaÒez Ortiz, and the
Department of Education
approaches him to build some
curriculum so that curriculum
studies will bring some of that
Puerto Rican experience of being
a Latino artist to the schools.
And he says, "No, we're going to
create a museum.
Curriculum is not good enough."
And apparently, they and... and
then the man from the Department
of Education was like, "Well,
that's so ambitious," I mean,
"this is a very young man,
imagine," and on.
>> HINOJOSA: And he's basically
saying...
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Saying, "I'm going to
create..."
>> HINOJOSA: ..."I want to
create a major cultural
institution in New York City.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: And his answer to this man
who's saying, "This is very
ambitious," he said, "If I were
an alpinist, I would be the
first Puerto Rican climbing the
Everest, and I think climbing
the Everest may be easier than
founding a museum today, in
retrospect."
And Raphael Ortiz did it.
It started very tiny.
It actually started on the Upper
West Side in a classroom, and
from there, he went on a trip
with these people from the
Department of Eduction to Puerto
Rico and collected some objects.
So it really... our founding
history has to do immediately of
becoming a collecting
institution.
So we were one of the, perhaps,
most long history of a Latino
institution collecting works of
art, which is the proper role of
a museum-- carrying and
collecting and developing a
collection.
So he brought some Taino
objects, some prints, and some
sand art, poular art, Santos de
Palo, and from that small
collection, little by little, it
grew.
And we've been, since 1977, what
I would consider really the
cornerstone of our development.
The crossroads between Fifth
Avenue-- Museum Mile, and today
we are the top of Museum Mile at
104th Street-- and well, 104th
Street, the entryway to El
Barrio.
>> HINOJOSA: To El Barrio.
And probably, we should probably
spend one second just explaining
to people, because they're
saying, "What's this word 'El
Barrio'?"
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Uh-huh.
>> HINOJOSA: El Barrio means...
neighborhood.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Totally, mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: It means community.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: But in New York, El
Barrio meant Puerto Ricans,
really.
I mean, there was a sense that
El Barrio
( speaking Spanish ).
It was a kind of Puerto Rican
town.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: It was home.
I mean, I think I would even go
futher.
I think it meant home, and as we
were saying earlier, El Museo
in its growth, then now, on this
corner-- Fifth Avenue, 104th
Street-- it's the best of both
words.
It's really the integration of
the highest museum concentration
in the world of the best quality
of the museums going from the
Met, the Guggenheim, the Jewish
Museum, the Design Museum, the
Cooper-Hewitt.
You know, you have all of those
museums lined up, and so now,
the City Museum of New York,
which is our neighbor, and then
El Museo Del Barrio has a home
from which to really propel our
culture.
>> HINOJOSA: But the truth is is
that there was a long time, once
El Museo kind of gets off
and running, that El Museo Del
Barrio was kind of seen as, you
know, as that kind of arts
institution up there in Spanish
Harlem.
It was not necessarily taken
seriously as a true, artisic
museum, per se.
I mean, what... there was that
kind of feeling towards El Museo
Del Barrio, right?
I mean, kind of like second...
second-class citizen?
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Well, I think... I think
it's, again, a question of time,
and I think it's so hard to
develop an institution, and I
think one has to give it to each
of those board members, staff
people, directors, that little
by little, grew it.
And it kind of had a life, and
you know that also the crisis of
the city in the '70s was not
very helpful, and so the life of
El Museo has been of constant
growth and a little bit of
tweaking.
But I think what was most
decisive in the growth of El
Museo is the last, I would say,
ten, 15 years.
And when my predecessor, Susana
Torruella Leval, took it as
director, she was the one also
sensing how much the community
around El Museo had been
changing.
>> HINOJOSA: Because people
don't realize that, you know,
mid-1980s...
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: ...El Barrio-- and
I was actually living there at
the time...
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: ...starts... and
I... because I'm Mexican and I
remember, you know, being in
that neighborhood and not... not
seeing any Mexicans, and then
all of a sudden, one night, 2:00
in the morning, I'm in a cab and
I start to hear Mexican ranchera
music on Lexington Avenue and
116th Street and I said, "Okay,
this is it."
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Totally.
>> HINOJOSA: Basically, El
Barrio starts yet another kind
of a transformation; this one
where you're seeing the
complexity of the Latino
experience, where it's not just
Puerto Ricans-- who, by the way,
are not immigrants, per se,
because they're born as American
citizens.
But then, El Barrio becomes more
Mexican, more Domincan, more
kind of diverse.
When you are named the head of
El Museo Del Barrio, there is a
huge controversy.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: You're the first
non-Puerto Rican to head what is
considered, actually, in its
formation, a Puerto Rican
cultural institution.
Talk a little bit about what
that was like.
You have this artistic
background from, you know, from
Louvre and the Sorbonne, and
then you come into this
institution.
They're saying, "Hey, wait a
second; you may be Latino, you
may be Mexican, but you don't
represent what El Museo Del
Barrio's supposed to be all
about.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Correct, and actually, that
was... that was... I was
surprised a little bit by that.
I think, you know, in a way it
was... I was selected by my
artistic credentials and my
understanding of the richness,
complexity of Latino/Latin
American culture.
But that... that tension that
existed-- and again, at the
beginning, with that... what...
that pushing back, what it
really told me is how important
this institution was for the
community.
So it was a really validating
factor that the museum has been
doing very good work, if
people felt so powerful about
it, you know?
>> HINOJOSA: So connected to it.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Exactly.
So at the same time, one of the
things that was very important
is to make sure that as... and I
think the hardest part of
expanding the mission really,
really was the work of my
predecessor, of Susana Leval,
who really understood that New
York was changing so much and
that in order for the Museo to
continue to grow, it had to
really accomdate and think about
all the new communities that
were part of the Latino
experience.
>> HINOJOSA: Let
me... let me stay with you for
what it was like for you, again,
as a Mexicano, because you also
kind of have to come into your
own identity as a... not just a
Mexicano, but now as not just a
Latin American, but as a Latino.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: Which is quite
different than... you know,
you're not a Latino when you
live in Latin America.
You're a Latino when you come to
the United States.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Totally, no, and I think that
is... that is a fascinating
thing.
So while this had happened, I
thought that that opening of the
mission and that embracing had
already been done.
So I come to Museo and I... I...
there is all this controversy,
and the reason I was drawn to El
Museo in this particular stage
of my life was the fact that I
had grown to be a Latino in
Europe, actually.
Because in Mexico, no, you're
just there, you know?
But as I moved to Europe and
then when I started working at
UNESCO, well, there was
subgroups of... and the... the
group of Caribbean and Latin
American people to discuss some
issues.
So there, both in the artistic
communities of poets, of artists
and everything, I encountered
the fact that I participated to
a larger thing than being
Mexican, but it was that we have
so much in common and we shared
so many experience.
And so moments that I will
always treasure is meeting the
big artist, the Chilean artist
Roberto Matta.
>> HINOJOSA: Lucky you!
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: He was like a mentor to a
younger group of artists that
had created a group, and I was
just there and that is where I
was starting to write about art
and meeting artists like
Saul Kaminer or... you know?
There were a group of artists,
poets, literary people, and
that's when I define, "Oh, I
participate, belong, to a
conversation that is Latin
American, and that we have so
much in common."
And then when I got to New
York, and that's when I realize
what an importance that that I
had discovered, and that it was
not as present in Europe.
In the United States it has a
very particular meaning, and it
is something that more and more
people are enjoying.
So what is very... and so when
I'm offered to go to El Museo
Del Barrio, I think I took it
as a responsibility for thinking
about this identity for the
future of our kids, you know, in
that sense.
>> HINOJOSA: But you're...
you're thrown into this kind of
major debate around Latino
identity...
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: ...and you know, a
lot of people look at the Latino
community, and just say, "It's a
Latino community..."
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: ...and have a hard
time saying, "Well, this person
is Mexican, or "this person is
Dominican," and "this person is
Chilean."
There's a kind of homogeneity
that people would like to see in
the Latino community, but in
fact, I always like to say we're
at the tip of the iceberg in
terms of understanding the
complexity of Latino reality in
this country.
I mean, there's... how can you
possibly... well, I mean, this
is a good question for you.
How can you possibly be a museum
of Latino art?
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Well...
>> HINOJOSA: What is Latino art?
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: I think that you're touching
the most complex question of
all, of course, and let me tell
you how we try to address that
at El Museo.
First of all, the important
thing is to recognize that yes,
if there is a big label called
"Latino," the label is to be
made so we can define it-- so
it's an active process of
defining.
>> HINOJOSA: And it's always
changing.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: And it's... it will change.
And...
>> HINOJOSA: And we should be
open to that change?
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: To explore it, at least.
And on the other side, we have a
tremendous respect for the
history, for the artistic
contributions of individuals
that have their own history.
So what we try to do is balance
a program in which individual
expressions come.
But what I feel is that we have
so much more in common
sometimes-- that the things that
divide, sometimes, are
communities.
And so El Museo has prided
itself of always bringing the
best of each of our artists, the
best of our poets, the best of
our writers, to share and
partake in what we have.
And I think by doing that, also
what we've gained is a
visibility that-- and also, I
think it is part of also a
common trend-- more non-Latinos
are attracted by understanding
and joy and excitement of Latino
culture.
So for someone who doesn't know
those subtle differences, we
kind of portray like we are a
trusted venue in which you will
discover something specific
about our Latino culture.
And that is the... yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: When people say,
though, "Well, wait a second.
El Museo Del Barrio was
supposed to be a community-based
organization that showcased
community artists..."
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: ...and critics say,
"Well, wait a second.
Now at El Museo Del Barrio you
can go in and see the artwork of
Frida Kahlo..."
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: "...or you're going
to see Taino relics."
And they're going to say, "Well,
wait a second.
That's not community-based art."
So what do you say to that?
How do you separate
community-based art, the
importance of community-based
art, versus the kind of refined
perspective of fine art, and
elevating Latinos there?
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Well, I think it comes with
the maturity of our
organization, and it comes with
the transformation of our
organization.
And the fact that what we pride
ourselves to be is always open
for the community, and the
community has embraced... this
past Saturday we had 2,000
people coming for an event we
called Super Sabado.
So check on your Web sites if
you're looking at us, and see
when is the next Super Sabado.
Because there are events for all
the families.
It starts in the morning, and it
goes through the day for
different kind of audiences.
But you can partake.
But what we have to guarantee is
that whether you're an abuelita
or a young child that the
qualtiy of the art is the most
elevating one that you will
find.
Why?
Because we're in New York.
Because we're competing against
the Met.
We're competing against the
MoMA.
And so that is what has pushed
and really made the move
of El Museo forward insofar that
if we're competing with those
great institutions, we have to
showcase for the enlightenment
of all our communities the best
art.
And in doing that, it's
always dialogues.
I mean, it's the curators that
work at El Museo who are working
on this.
We take enormous time, pride, of
working closely with artists.
And so for instance we have our
biennial, and now we're going to
be preparing for the next one.
The biennial is the work of
identifying Latinos and Latin
Americans that work within a
two-three hours radius of our
museum and see what they're
doing, what they're creating.
So our... we receive sometimes
600 files-- and it's called the
Selected Files-- for unsolicited
files, and it's wound down until
the curators get a very close
approach with each of the
artists to nurture them.
>> HINOJOSA: But what do you see
when you kind of look into the
future of, let's say, ten, 20
years from now?
You know, Latinos are now
considered the largest minority
group.
I don't like the term
"minority," but for lack of a
better term.
Or the second majority.
You want to call it that?
>> HINOJOSA: The second
majority.
I like that.
So what about cultural
institutions down the line, when
people say, "Wait a second-- all
of our cultures are all meshing
together.
Do we need a museum of Latino
art?"
Do we need, for example... right
now the name of the museum
that's coming up in Washington,
the National Museum of the
American Latino.
Wait a second-- aren't we all
American?
Shouldn't we all be sharing each
other's culture?
I mean, you have these kinds of
discussions within El Museo all
the time, I'm sure.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Totally.
And I think... yeah, some people
say, "Well, if everybody shows
Latin American art, Latino
art..." like right now, more and
more museums are starting to
either have a curator that deals
with Latin American art, or have
collections expanding, or even
showcasing temporal shows.
But at the same time, you always
have to redefine your mission
accordingly, and take stock of
what's going around you.
And I think El Museo has
proposed a number of artists and
everything.
So it's still relevant, because
we do it 365 days a year.
Some museums will put one show,
and then three years later put
another one.
So I think of El Museo as a
platform.
And I think exhibitions are just
really the tip of the iceberg of
what we do, because what we
really do day in, day out is
serve more than 50,000 children
and families through our
education department.
So any given day, you have
children coming, not only
looking at an exhibition, going
to our labs on the third floor,
doing hands-on workshops.
We will have at any given time
arts educators from El Museo in
the schools in the five
boroughs.
>> HINOJOSA: So that's one of
the things that you consider
central, this question of
maintaining the education, of
really building up the next
generation of Latino artists.
But I wonder...
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: And museumgoers.
And I would say what we really
work is on visual literacy, and
the appreciation of and
understanding that art can
transform your life.
So we're not into making art
historians or artists of each of
the children that are arts
educators, but in giving them
tools that, with our cultural
heritage, that they can define,
they can enrich themselves.
And you don't have to be Latino
to enjoy and enrich yourself
with our heritage.
>> HINOJOSA: But there are
certain particularities of
things that happen within the
Latino community, complexities
that are being faced.
One of them is the class
complexity.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Totally.
>> HINOJOSA: How do you, as the
director of a museum based in el
barrio deal with the issue of
these kind of... on the one
hand, a very wealthy part of the
Latino community, on the other
hand an entirely disenfranchised
and scared...
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Well, actually, I mean, this
is a very, very important point.
And I think in most communities
also this kind of a duality
exists.
But I think never as pointed as
in our Latino community.
On the one side, the very
positive thing is that more and
more of these people of certain
wealth are becoming
philanthropic, you know?
And for us Latinos it has never
been the normal thing, because
in our countries there's not
this notion of philanthropy like
it is valued here in the US.
So more and more we're starting
to see newcomers or generations
of self-made Latinos starting to
be philanthropic.
Now, of course, the first needs
they address sometimes is legal
representation, education,
health.
Art comes after we have taken
care of that.
On the other side, these very
generous people that support El
Museo, they support El Museo
because they know that we are
taking care of this other group
of people.
And our education programs and a
lot of our public programs have
that in particular.
So of all the schools we serve--
we serve 254 schools right now--
many of them are in the poorest
neighborhoods.
Many of them immediately have
also the biggest... we're
averaging 60% to 70% minorities
in those schools, where the
average Latino population in
public schools in New York is
40%.
So of course our efforts are
concerted so that they benefit
from the existence of a cultural
institution that is closer to
their needs.
And then we also take account of
the fact that yes, it is
intimidating.
Imagine that your parents
immigrated here, they're
hardworking, they barely speak
English.
The kids start to be the
go-between.
And let me tell you one
anecdote, one beautiful thing
that happened one day.
A museum is not a place that
normally these hardworking
people would go.
But because we have a... we go
very presently to their schools
and everything, and we gave
bilingual fliers to come for
free to El Museo, one girl was
touring her father.
So you see the pride first of
the girl explaining to her
father, this man that perhaps
that was a first experience
going through the threshold of a
museum.
A bit intimidating and
everything, but the bond that
was happening there was amazing.
So we're really working for
making those young children,
those new Latinos, new
Americans, that are the future
of this country are proud of
their heritage, that they now
also are ambassadors toward the
parents.
Completely different than what
happened.
My parents dragged me to
museums, and I hated it, you
know?
I don't know how things changed
eventually.
>> HINOJOSA: Your parents
dragged you to museums and you
hated it?
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: I didn't like it.
I didn't like it.
I didn't like it.
It wasn't until I started going
on my own...
>> HINOJOSA: Okay, so that means
lesson for everybody-- it's okay
if you sometimes drag your kids
to a museum.
You never know-- your kid might
end up being a museum director.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: And I drag my kids, and they
don't like it, you know?
But the early experience, this
is important.
Early exposure to art, it's
moments... when we go to
classrooms, it's the moment in
which there's a bit of freedom
in the curriculum, it's like...
in which they can express
themselves.
And beauty comes out of that,
you know?
>> HINOJOSA: So when you think
about the future, you know, this
is kind of your more position as
a curator, and as arts... what
does Latino art look like in the
future if now, you know, you're
second or third generation?
And what about those artists who
say, "Look, I'm an artist.
I happen to be Latino, and part
of that influences me, but I'm
an artist.
Don't label me as a Latino
artist, because I'm an artist."
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: That is happening more and
more.
And for instance, there was
recently a very important
retrospective of the work of
Gabriel Orozco at the Museum of
Modern Art in New York.
And Gabriel Orozco comes in a
generation that studied in the
'90s, and is really an
international postconceptual
globetrotter kind of artist that
today defines himself by the
myriad of experience that he has
had.
So more and more I think... of
course, all of our history
influences and informs
everything we do.
But some artists I think feel
they have more in common with an
international group of artists,
or international issues that
they're dealing with.
And also, for instance, today,
an artist drawing in New York
has more in common with another
artist living in London or
Mumbai-- they are big capitols,
big cities, in which a lot of
things are going on-- then
someone painting in Chihuahua,
you know?
So rural, urban, global
connections are changing the way
we think.
So perhaps the labels will be
urban artists versus rural
artists at one point or another.
>> HINOJOSA: So if there is a
young Latino artist, or any
artist, your message to them is
what, as they're watching this
and they're saying, "Look,
that's a huge art world, there's
no way I can compete"?
As director of El Museo del
Barrio, what do you want these
young people who are thinking
about the arts, what's the
message?
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: The message, I think, is
contemporary art really is a
translation of what people are
living.
So I would recommend, go to see
all the galleries.
Galleries... I mean, if you're
living in a city like New York
or Boston, or that there are
galleries representing artists,
go to all the shows.
They're free, and you can enter.
You can even sometimes sip a
little bit of wine in their
opening.
Go and see what other artists
are doing, how they're
expressing themselves, and live
life at the fullest.
Because it's only then that your
art will also be at the fullest.
So I think expressing oneself...
and if you have it inside, just
go for it with all your heart.
>> HINOJOSA: Well, good luck
with El Museo del Barrio.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Well, we invite all of you
who are watching to come and to
visit us, whether online-- we
have a nice new Web site after
our reopening-- or to visit us
physically, because we have
transformed to be more welcoming
and more embracing for all.
>> HINOJOSA: Gracias, Julian.
>> ZUGAZAGOITIA: Gracias.
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