Transcript
>> HINOJOSA: She's one of the
most iconic mother figures in
the history of American
television.
In the 1980s, she became a
household name with her role as
Bill Cosby's wife Clair Huxtable
in the hit sitcom The Cosby
Show.
Since then, she's starred in
movies, TV series, and on
Broadway, and in 2004, became
the first African American to
win a Tony for Best Leading
Actress in a Play-- celebrated
actress Phylicia Rashad.
I'm Maria Hinojosa, this is One
On One.
Phylicia Rashad, what an honor
to have you on our program.
Thank you for joining us.
>> RASHAD: Thank you, thank you so much.
>> HINOJOSA: So you know, The
Cosby Show has been off the air
for 20 years, and I wondered, do
you... do you get tired of
talking about The Cosby Show?
I mean, you've done so much
between then and now.
Or do you still feel that in the
year 2011 we need to talk about
The Cosby Show?
>> RASHAD: I think The Cosby Show is...
what could I say?
It... landmark television,
revolutionized television in
many ways, saved a network,
universal, appreciated all over
the world.
>> HINOJOSA: All over the world.
>> RASHAD: All over the world.
>> HINOJOSA: This is... this is
a fact that I didn't know-- that
Nelson Mandela used to watch The
Cosby Show from Robin Island
with his white guard.
>> RASHAD: Yes.
And he told me this, and he
told... he thanked me for this
show and he said, "We watched it
together and your show softened
him."
>> HINOJOSA: Amazing.
How often do you think about it,
though?
I mean, you know, you are... you
are an icon.
What does one do when, you know,
you helped to create that, and
yet you walk in the world,
you're a working actor, so how
often do you think about that?
>> RASHAD: When somebody mentions it
I'll think about it.
I was always very happy to be a
part of it.
I considered it one of the
greatest gifts ever and I still
do and I'm always happy to talk
about it.
>> HINOJOSA: And you love Mr.
Cos... you still call him "Mr.
Cosby."
>> RASHAD: Well, respect-- R-E-S-P-C-T.
( laughing )
I love him, I adore him, yes, I
do.
>> HINOJOSA: He is fearless on
so many levels.
>> RASHAD: Yes, he is.
>> HINOJOSA: What was the
fearless part about him that you
came to... to love so much?
>> RASHAD: Everything about him.
I loved his attention to detail
and the fact that he seemed to
be paying attention to only one
thing when, in fact, he was
paying attention to everything.
>> HINOJOSA: Like even the
artwork that was hanging up...
>> RASHAD: Especially the artwork that
was hanging up, small pictures
on the set.
And when you look at episodes of
that show, the production values
are unlike anything else.
He... he's a student of history,
and I mean the history of comedy
and the history of television,
the history of films, history of
performing as well as the
history of governments
throughout the world.
The man is amazing.
>> HINOJOSA: Not afraid at all
to talk on the issue of race.
>> RASHAD: No.
>> HINOJOSA: Had Alvin Poussaint
helping to "decode/recode"
blackness for America.
>> RASHAD: Well, he wanted to make sure
that things were correct, you
know?
He wanted to make sure that any
references we made-- even the
slight thing about Rudy having a
cough and her father getting her
to take the cough syrup-- that
nothing was askew even to
slightly suggest something that
a child could take in the wrong
way.
He was... he had tremendous, and
still does, tremendous respect
for his audience's intelligence,
and he used to say this all the
time: "The audience is not
stupid.
We're not going to have stupid
people on this show."
>> HINOJOSA: And now when you
look at television, Phylicia,
you know, I'm... and I know that
you've spoken about, for
example, some of the family
sitcoms, and I'm a mom, you
know?
And when I see these family
sitcoms and these kids kind of
answering back to their parents,
and I'm like, "Hmm?"
What do you see?
What goes on in your heart when
you're watching television these
days?
>> RASHAD: Television and some film.
It's ridiculous, it's
ridiculous.
I was watching something last
night that was a big film and
young people, and when I heard
certain things being said,
I thought, "You know what?
I'm not going to watch this.
I... I... just, this is dumb, it
is stupid, and I'm not going to
watch it."
Because any child growing up in
my house who talked that way,
well, a couple of things would
be happening.
They'd be in the emergency room
and I'd be in the court.
>> HINOJOSA: ( laughing )
>> RASHAD: I mean, come on,
let's face it.
You're just not going to have
that.
So why would I spend time
watching something that I don't
accept?
I'm not going to do that.
>> HINOJOSA: So is that what we
need to do?
I mean, so many people, with The
Cosby Show, turned it on and
that's what gave it that power,
right?
I mean, you actually had the
numbers.
>> RASHAD: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: Top rated show.
>> RASHAD: We had the numbers because
people could identify with it.
It resonated with people because
it was real.
I mean, I watched something the
other night that would be in
that... in that arena, but there
was no real relationship between
the man and the wife because
they... people... he wasn't
afraid of anything.
He wasn't afraid... he wasn't
afraid of the relationship
between the husband and wife, he
wasn't afraid of the...
>> HINOJOSA: That it wasn't
always perfect.
>> RASHAD: That it wasn't always perfect
but there was so much love in
it-- there was so much love and
romance.
And there was always... you knew
it; I mean, you know, you knew
it.
There was nothing vulgar about
it, but you knew it and you
accepted it.
"Oh, yeah, that's... that's the
truth.
That's what happens," you know?
Nothing sterile about it.
>> HINOJOSA: And when you...
when you would hear these
criticisms of like, "Oh, that's
so unreal"...
>> RASHAD: I laugh at that, because I
wondered, "Who do these people
know?"
( laughing )
I grew up in Houston, Texas and
my father was a dentist and he
wasn't the only one.
There was an... an association
of African American dentists--
the Charles A. Drew Dental
Society, all right?
>> HINOJOSA: In Houston, in the
year... you know, I mean, just
because a lot of people don't
think of Houston as having a
strong African American
community, necessarily.
It's such a Latino population
now and so mixed, but you were
there and there was a big
African American community--
still there.
>> RASHAD: Not one, several.
>> HINOJOSA: Many.
>> RASHAD: There were several.
There were... there were at
least four African American high
schools-- five-- and there were
one to two junior high schools
feeding into those... each high
school, and there were two to
three to four elementary schools
feeding into the junior high
schools.
You see what I'm saying?
And in every community, there
were professionals.
There were doctors, there were
dentists, there were attorneys,
people owned the grocery stores,
people owned things, people had
businesses, it was that way,
that's the way it was.
>> HINOJOSA: So while there was
all of that, you were also
growing up at a time when there
was segregation.
>> RASHAD: Legal segregation.
>> HINOJOSA: Legal segregation.
>> RASHAD: In this country.
>> HINOJOSA: Can you tell me the
story about what you did when
you were a little girl and you
saw the water fountain?
>> RASHAD: ( laughing )
>> HINOJOSA: I love this story.
>> RASHAD: Well, first of all, let me
just say this all begins with my
mother, Vivian Ayers, who
decided that her children were
not going to be scarred by
racism, so if there was
something that we wanted to do
or someplace that we wanted to
go and we were not allowed to go
because of legal segregation,
she would say, "Well, we're not
going to go there because that's
a private club and we're not
members of that club," and we'd
say, "Oh, okay."
All right?
>> HINOJOSA: Okay, mom.
>> RASHAD: And in the meantime, we
tumbled in the living room.
She'd move the furniture away
and teach us to tumble.
She'd bring all of our
friends in off the street and
teach us choral speech, she
taught us to read music, she had
literature, I mean, and there
was John Biggers and Joseph Mack
and all these artists who were
in our home all the time.
So our world experience was not
defined by legal segregation,
and when your world experience
is not defined by legal
segregation, your understanding
of yourself is broad, okay?
So there I am, I've learned how
to read, and I'm in the grocery
store and there are two water
fountains and one says "For
Colored," and the other one
says, "For Whites Only."
Well, I was always a curious
child-- most inquisitive about
life and things.
I always wanted to know, you
know, where things came from and
what they were and why.
And I looked and I would read...
I would read that sign.
I would look at that sign and I
would look at that sign and I
said, "Now, why... why is that
like that?"
>> HINOJOSA: Did you know white?
Did you understand that was for
white people?
>> RASHAD: I was beginning to understand
it.
I was beginning to understand
it, but I wanted to know why.
I mean, you know, I understood
that that was going on.
By this time, I understood what
was going on, but I didn't quite
understand why because it never
made sense, you know?
It still doesn't make sense,
okay?
>> HINOJOSA: Right, right.
>> RASHAD: So I decided, "I'm going to
go over there and I'm going to
taste that water."
>> HINOJOSA: Which was a big
deal.
>> RASHAD: I went over there and I
tasted that water and that water
didn't taste any different.
And I knew something in that
moment that I wouldn't be able
to articulate for a long time,
and that was that humanity had
tricked itself.
>> HINOJOSA: To believe that
somehow, we can separate
ourselves.
>> RASHAD: Humanity had tricked itself
into not... into refusal;
refusing to accept itself in its
fullness.
>> HINOJOSA: In our sameness.
>> RASHAD: Yeah, in its fullness.
>> HINOJOSA: Your mom really is
an extraordinary woman...
>> RASHAD: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: ...because at one
point, she decides-- and I love
this story...
>> RASHAD: ( laughing )
>> HINOJOSA: ...in fact, in the
face of segregation...
>> RASHAD: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: ...your mom is
looking for an out for you, for
her children.
And she says, "I'm going South--
I'm going to Mexico."
>> RASHAD: No, "We're going.
We're... I've had enough.
We're moving to Mexico."
No, "We're moving," that's what
she said.
We didn't think much of it,
because you know, we would move
from house... to change houses.
"Where are we going, mom?"
"We're moving to Mexico."
>> HINOJOSA: ( laughing )
>> RASHAD: Uh-huh, yeah, she did do
that.
>> HINOJOSA: You take a bus from
Houston, you arrive into Mexico
City, and what's amazing is is
that in Mexico, you, as an
African American woman, feel
entirely free.
Accepted?
>> RASHAD: It's different... it's
different.
Mexican people would see us
walking and they'd look at me,
because I was the darker one,
and they'd say, "Aye, negrita;
aye, negrita."
And I didn't quite know what to
make of that, and it was
sometime before I understood
that that was a compliment; that
they were marveling at the color
of my skin and found it very
beautiful.
>> HINOJOSA: What did that
experience do?
I mean, actually, we know that
that experience did.
It made you learn Spanish and
that helped you get that... that
audition...
>> RASHAD: Yes, it did.
>> HINOJOSA: ...for Clair
Huxtable.
>> RASHAD: ( laughing ) Many years
later; yes, it did.
>> HINOJOSA: Right?
Because Bill Cosby actually
wanted his wife on the show to
be able to speak Spanish...
>> RASHAD: He wanted a bilingual...
>> HINOJOSA: ...which is very,
very forward thinking.
>> RASHAD: Very forward thinking.
>> HINOJOSA: What did that
experience of living in Latin
America do for you as a young
African American girl?
>> RASHAD: As a young girl, it was so...
it was an expansive experience.
It was one of expansion.
The world was big, the sources
of news were varied, and it was
an international city and there
were people from all over the
world.
And then there was this city
that was steeped in its own
history and culture.
It was expansive.
>> HINOJOSA: So when you think
about what's happening in our
country today in terms of
African Americans and Latinos,
how much of a dialogue do you
think we need, someone like you,
who is just so iconic in that?
And it was... it was amazing for
me to realize that you speak
Spanish, that you have this
relationship.
Do you think about that?
About the importance of, you
know, yet again now another
relationship that needs to be
worked on-- African American and
Latino in our country?
>> RASHAD: It does need to be worked on
and I was privileged to have
this conversation with one of my
daughters who is a teacher in
Atlanta, Georgia.
And in her school there is a
sizable Hispanic population, and
you know, in her growing up--
this was my stepdaughter-- in
her growing up, you know, I was
sharing all these influences
with all of the children all the
time.
And we were having this
conversation one day, and I said
to her, "You have to do
something," because she was
lamenting the fact... she was
lamenting this exclusion.
And I was explaining to her what
it was like for me at age 13 to
sit in a classroom and not
understand the language in which
the basic studies were being
taught.
I had been an A student, and all
of a sudden, I sat in a
classroom and couldn't
understand the simplest thing
because I didn't speak the
language.
And I was explaining to her what
that was like from a young
person's point of view and how
it can render you feeling less
than you are.
It can affect one's self esteem,
and so you may think somebody is
dull, when really, the truth of
the matter is is they just don't
speak your language-- and more
importantly, as the teacher,
you're not speaking theirs.
>> HINOJOSA: So when you think
about, you know, you're talking
about at that point talking to
your stepdaughter, you know, you
are this iconic mother figure--
and I'm sure you're like, "Oh,
god; that word, 'iconic mother
figure.'"
>> RASHAD: Yeah, what is that?
>> HINOJOSA: "What is that?"
>> RASHAD: It's easy when you're
scripted, let me just get that
out of the way.
>> HINOJOSA: Right.
>> RASHAD: And the children are scripted
too.
>> HINOJOSA: Right.
>> RASHAD: Okay?
Okay.
>> HINOJOSA: But so many women
also think of you as... as a
woman of substance, as an actor
and in the roles that you
chose... that you choose...
continue to choose.
I was watching the amazing play
that you did with Sean P. Diddy
Combs, A Raisin in the Sun.
Saw it on film and on
television.
You know, again, another
lasting, important char...
you've done so many across, you
know, in terms of theatre.
But was that always conscious?
Were you always thinking, "I
want to portray strong,
dignified, smart women"?
>> RASHAD: No.
I wanted to portray... I wanted
to give a faithful portrayal of
human beings, whoever they are,
and I wanted the human beings to
have been written with a respect
for their humanity, whatever
their circumstances are.
And that's what I wanted, and
that's what I want.
I've portrayed some people who
were not iconic mother figures.
I've portrayed mothers who
murdered their children-- Madea.
>> HINOJOSA: Right.
>> RASHAD: I've portrayed a mother who
was a substance abuser-- Violet
Weston, August: Osage County...
>> HINOJOSA: Mm-hmm.
>> RASHAD: ...who was a terror in the
household, you know, and ended
up in some kind of state of
dementia, you know?
They're not all Clair Huxtables.
>> HINOJOSA: But they're all
very powerful women.
Maybe... you know...
>> RASHAD: They are respectfully
written.
>> HINOJOSA: Hmm.
>> RASHAD: You know?
And this is the power of art.
This is the power of theatre.
This is the potential of film.
This is the potential of all of
it-- a truthful, faithful
portrayal of a human being.
It begins with the writing, it's
carried through by the director
who holds a vision, and as an
actor, you become incorporated
in that.
>> HINOJOSA: How hard is it
these days in, you know,
commercial media?
>> RASHAD: Ooh, child!
( laughing )
>> HINOJOSA: So it's hard.
>> RASHAD: I don't know.
I don't pay much attention to
them.
I just do the work that I do.
>> HINOJOSA: But you're lucky,
right?
>> RASHAD: I'm very fortunate.
>> HINOJOSA: Because you... you
get the calls.
You... you continue to be able
to work.
>> RASHAD: I'm very fortunate, I'm very
fortunate, yes, I am very
fortunate.
But I... I think a certain way.
You know, the way you think is
very important.
If a writer is thinking in
limited terms, it's reflected in
the writing.
August Wilson's sister told me
once that earlier on in his life
at some point, August Wilson
went on a vision quest, and they
were out in the natural
surroundings and the person
leading the quest asked the
people to close their eyes and
envision a body of water and
then share with... what their
vision was.
And some people said, "Oh, I saw
a beautiful lake," and someone
said, "Oh, I saw a beautiful
pond," and someone said, "Oh, I
saw a rushing river," and August
said, "Man, I saw the whole
ocean!"
>> HINOJOSA: ( laughing )
>> RASHAD: You know?
His vision was large, you know?
Mr. Cosby's vision is large.
>> HINOJOSA: And so we should
not be afraid of large vision;
being able to kind of take
ownership of that.
>> RASHAD: No.
>> HINOJOSA: And yet... but as a
little girl, amazingly, you
actually thought that you
weren't pretty.
You thought you were ugly.
>> RASHAD: But that's... that's normal.
I mean, all little girls go
through that.
Little girls... little girls go
through that.
Well, honey, if you had my
mother, and... my mother and my
father and they way they looked,
it's like, "You can't be pretty
compared to them."
No, they were just beautiful
people, okay?
Just really, really gorgeous,
beautiful people, and I thought,
"Oh, God was on a serious lunch
break when I was born."
>> HINOJOSA: Oh, my God!
But...
>> RASHAD: But I found something else.
I... I found out what beauty
really is, and I discovered it
at an early age.
And like most of my discoveries
at an early age, I wouldn't be
able to articulate it for many
years to come.
I was 11 years old in sixth
grade and there was going to be
this music festival of the
elementary schools, and it was
going to be in the Great Hall at
that time in Houston in the
Houston Coliseum.
And each school was going to
have a representative audition
to read the libretto from
The Musicians of Bremen.
An ancient tale, yes?
>> HINOJOSA: Pretty amazing.
>> RASHAD: All right, so my teachers
selected me because of my speech
patterns.
I don't know, anyway, we worked
and we worked and we worked and
we worked and we worked and then
we went before the school board
and had this audition.
And... and when we came out of
it, they said, "They don't want
you to read the libretto," and I
said, "Okay."
"They want you to be the
mistress of ceremonies for the
entire evening."
That meant more work.
Every day before classes and
every afternoon after classes,
no more time on the playground
kicking the ball, you know?
But every day, work, work, work,
work, work with this script.
So by the time the evening came,
I knew the script by heart and I
was dressed in the most
beautiful dress and Shirley
Temple curls and a crown of
flowers and white ruffled socks
and the whole thing.
And I went to stand in front of
the microphone.
It was the first time ever that
I stood in a spotlight and the
light was so bright I couldn't
see anything else.
I couldn't see anybody in that
coliseum.
All I could see was light.
And I help the script in my hand
on a beautiful binder with
musical notes and everything,
but because of all the work we
had done, I didn't need to look
at the script because I knew it
by heart.
So I just stood and I talked to
the light and I talked to the
light and I talked
to the light...
>> HINOJOSA: ( laughing )
>> RASHAD: ...and all the things I had
to say to the light.
When it was over and we were
leaving, I heard several of the
mothers who were coming to
collect their children say,
"There she is; oh, there's the
little girl who spoke so
beautifully.
Isn't she beautiful?"
And I heard that, because that
was the one thing I always
wanted in my life and thought
I'd never have was just to be
beautiful.
I thought, "When I grow up, I'm
going to be an actress.
I'm going to play in the light
and beautiful all the time."
But what I didn't understand was
what that feeling of beauty was.
It had nothing to do with what I
was wearing or how my hair was
arranged; it was communication
from the heart.
>> HINOJOSA: Honesty.
>> RASHAD: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: Feeling.
>> RASHAD: Communication from the heart.
>> HINOJOSA: So what do you say
to... to young women of color
who battle so much with their
self image?
Who, you know... who don't see
themselves necessarily... I
mean, you're not on television
anymore.
They don't see themselves
reflected all the time...
>> RASHAD: Uh-uh, they don't.
>> HINOJOSA: What do you say to
them about owning their own
beauty?
>> RASHAD: You know, it's... it's really
something for young girls,
because it's so important for
them to see something of
themselves.
And so, young ladies today,
you're going to have to look
inside your own self to see it,
because there's not a lot that
reflects it.
There's a lot that says, "Young
girls, if you look like this and
if you dress like this and you
make yourself a field of
pleasure for someone, you're
going to do okay."
And that's... that's a crock.
( laughing ) Because that's...
there's no truth in it at all.
>> HINOJOSA: Simply put.
>> RASHAD: ( laughing ) That's a crock.
Don't believe that mess.
Take the time to look inside
your own self, you know?
Find something that speaks to
your heart and develop yourself
in that thing and then offer
it... offer it to humanity.
>> HINOJOSA: So where do you
find... I mean, I know that
everybody sees you and you're
gorgeous and you're performing
and you're doing all these
things, but you know, we all
know that life is also not
always so simple and
beautiful...
>> RASHAD: No, it's not, is it?
>> HINOJOSA: So where do you
find your inspiration when
you... you know, when you find
yourself looking at our country
or looking media, or you know,
where do you tap into to find
your own sense of inspiration
and hope?
>> RASHAD: I can look at a sunrise or a
sunset, I can sit quietly and
listen to birds and just watch
light filtering through the
leaves of trees, I can look at
my cat, I can look at a garden,
I can look at children playing,
I can look at things in life
that make me remember-- that
help me to remember-- that its
source is beauty.
The source of life is beauty.
The source of life is love.
And when you see these things,
you see these natural wonders,
see them with the understanding
that you're so much a part of it
that that same energy that's
placed the stars and holds them
in motion and guides their way
and the galaxies as they twirl
about, you're part of that--
we're part of that.
And whatever intelligence that
is that has set that in place
set us in place too, lives in us
too.
>> HINOJOSA: Phylicia Rashad,
thank you so much for joining
us.
It's been... an extraordinary
pleasure, and thank you for all
of your work.
>> RASHAD: Mm, thank you, thank you so
much.
>> HINOJOSA: Continue the
conversation at
wgbh.org/oneonone.
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