Transcript
>> HINOJOSA: She is a tireless
advocate of dialogue between
Iran and the U.S.
But on a 2007 trip to Tehran,
she was accused of treason,
arrested, and placed in solitary
confinement for 105 days.
Director of the Middle East
Program at the Woodrow Wilson
Center, Haleh Esfandiari.
I'm Maria Hinojosa.
This is One On One.
Dr. Haleh Esfandiari, welcome to
our program.
>> ESFANDIARI: Thank you for having me.
>> HINOJOSA: So, in the fall of
2007... no, in the spring of
2007, suddenly I go to my
computer and I start seeing
these emails that say, "There is
an Iranian-American academic who
is being held in a Tehran
prison.
Do everything that you can to
try to get her out."
And of course I started sending
that to many people, and I
received it from women's groups,
from journalist groups, from
human rights groups.
I don't remember any of those
emails saying that Haleh
Esfandiari was a grandmother who
was detained.
How did you survive?
You were 105 days in solitary
confinement.
>> ESFANDIARI: It was very tough, Maria, but
I am a very disciplined person.
And being 67 years old and a
student of Iran, having studied
carefully, a lifetime, Iran,
I knew how to handle my
interrogators, and I knew how to
make it possible for myself to
survive under those very
difficult and dire conditions,
both physical and mental.
>> HINOJOSA: When you say that
you knew, what do you mean?
I mean, you had never been in
prison, you had never been
interrogated before.
How did you know how to survive
these people who were
terrorizing you?
>> ESFANDIARI: I was interrogated for four
months before I was detained.
Outside prison, I used to spend
with the same people eight to
nine hours a day, day after day
after day, going over the same
questions and answers.
And I knew their mentality.
But once they took me in, I
mean, I decided I either had to
survive, or if I succumbed to
despair, then they would have
achieved what they wanted,
meaning a forced confession from
me.
>> HINOJOSA: You say that you
never broke down when you were
being interrogated, and I just
think, "Oh, my God, if I'm being
interrogated nine hours a day,
same question after same
question, there would come a
point where I would just say,
'I've done with you!
Be quiet!
I don't want to hear...'"
You know, just lose it.
And yet you didn't.
>> ESFANDIARI: No, I didn't, because I knew
that they wanted me to lose my
temper.
They wanted me to become angry.
And then they would achieve what
they had wanted.
And I decided not to.
And I would cry, but not in
front of my interrogators, not
the women guards.
I would go to my cell at night,
and when I would lie down on the
floor on a few blankets, I would
put my head under the chador,
which was acting as my cover,
and my sheet, you know, and I
would cry there.
Or I would go and cry under the
shower.
But I never cried in front of my
interrogators.
I never cried in front of
women's guards.
>> HINOJOSA: You know, you
are... when people read your
book My Prison, My Home, which
is a story of your detention and
the history of US-Iranian
relations, you are now a role
model of a woman of strength.
You... and I love this story.
You survived... part of what you
did to survive was that you
would do Pilates in solitary
confinement in a women's prison
in Iran.
>> ESFANDIARI: Yes.
>> ESFANDIARI: You were walking back and
forth in your cell for hours.
How did you develop that level
of discipline, to just say, you
know, "I will do my exercises,
you know, for an hour here, for
an hour there"?
Where did that kind of strength
come from?
>> ESFANDIARI: I didn't have a watch, first
of all.
You know, they took my watch.
So when I was not interrogated,
I had to kill the time.
And I was suffering from macular
degeneration, so I couldn't read
more than maybe two hours a day,
especially since I was writing
all the time during the
interrogation.
I had to write the answers.
>> HINOJOSA: By hand.
>> ESFANDIARI: By hand.
>> HINOJOSA: With a pen.
>> ESFANDIARI: Or a pencil, whatever was
available.
So I decided that if I don't do
anything, if I go and sit in a
corner of my cell, I would start
thinking about my family.
And I knew thinking about my
family would break me down.
So I decided that I have to do
something to keep my body at
least in good shape,
quote-unquote, you know?
And since I'm a fanatic about
exercising, I like Pilates, I
like walking, I decided to do
Pilates in my cell, and I
decided to walk up and down the
cell and count.
So by doing Pilates and counting
all the time, it stopped me from
thinking about that.
>> HINOJOSA: Did the women
guards who were guarding you
think you were a little crazy?
Here's this, you know,
grandmother...
>> ESFANDIARI: 67-year-old woman.
>> HINOJOSA: Who's doing Pilates
and exercising in her cell.
Did they think you were... or
did they look at you and say,
"Maybe I need to learn something
from Haleh"?
>> ESFANDIARI: Well, it was interesting.
Some of them would come to me
and say, "Could you teach us
some of the movement to tighten
the muscles of our stomach," or,
"Could you teach us how to get
our triceps in shape," you know?
And I would laugh, and I would
teach them, you know.
They would stand by the door,
because they were not allowed to
come into the cell when we
were... when the inmates were in
the cell.
So they would stand by the door,
and I would go on the floor and
show them some situps, you know?
But sure, they had never come
across someone as strange as me.
Because they would come to me
and say, "Why don't you sit
still?"
Because as long as I was moving
they had to come and check
regularly on me.
But if I was sitting in a corner
they could go out and have their
cup of tea.
>> HINOJOSA: So in the end...
you know, again, from this... on
this side, while you were being
detained, we knew that you were
an Iranian-American academic,
the head of the Woodrow Wilson
Center Middle East Program.
But why do you believe,
ultimately, that you were
arrested, you know,
interrogated?
Why were you the target?
>> ESFANDIARI: I was the target of the
Iranian intelligence ministry
and the office of the president,
President Ahmadinejad.
And they believed that the
United States was going to
overthrow the regime, but
because it was bogged down in
Iraq and in Afghanistan--
don't forget, it was during the
previous administration in
2007-- so they would resort to
what they would call "soft
means."
And the instrument for bringing
about such regime change through
a Velvet Revolution, though
soft means, were American
foundations, American think
tanks, and American
universities.
They didn't know how these
institutions in the United
States work.
>> HINOJOSA: So let me... so
basically, the Iranian
intelligence ministry and
president's office believed that
the Woodrow Wilson Center, and
you specifically, were holding
conferences around Iranian
issues, not with the intention
of having academic dialogue, but
with the ultimate intention of
furthering American government
policy to destabilize Iran.
>> ESFANDIARI: Perfectly-- you put it
perfectly.
Their idea, or their
understanding, was that we are
inviting-- with the Wilson
Center or other foundations,
other think tanks, whatever--
were inviting Iranian academics
basically to recruit them, you
know.
>> HINOJOSA: So you're like a
spy.
I mean, you were, like,
operating on behalf of the
government.
>> ESFANDIARI: Operating on
behalf of the American
government.
And, you know, I
would argue back.
For eight months I had
back-and-forth argument with
these people, and trying to
explain how these institutions
in the United States work, that
universities are not affiliated
to the U.S. government, that
think tanks are independent, and
foundations not only support,
let's say, a program on Iran,
but they support programs on
poverty, you know, alleviating
poverty and many other things,
for example.
But didn't make headway at all,
because they were convinced that
this was all a front and that I
was the perfect, you know,
target for the U.S. government
to be recruited and to be sent
to Iran to invite people--
which was ridiculous, you know.
>> HINOJOSA: But at the same
time, you know, the U.S.
government-- not only the Bush
administration but other
governments in the past-- have
not been completely honest in
terms of their relationships
with other governments.
>> ESFANDIARI: Sure, sure.
>> HINOJOSA: I mean, there are
stories of U.S. involvement in
otherthrows...
>> ESFANDIARI: Sure, sure.
>> HINOJOSA: ...whether they
were soft overthrows or direct
overthrows.
>> ESFANDIARI: Sure, sure.
>> HINOJOSA: So, you know, if
you put yourself in the mind of
the Iranian government, they
could in fact say, "Yeah, the
United States, they've done this
before."
>> ESFANDIARI: Yeah, but look.
I mean, Iran sees itself as the
mightiest power in the Persian
Gulf region.
I remember one day through my
interrogation, when again they
brought up this whole notion of
velvet revolution.
I said, "Look, Iran is not a
banana republic to be overthrown
by 20 academics who come and
take part in conferences.
You consider yourself the
mightiest power in the Persian
Gulf.
How do these two notions
reconcile with each other?"
And they said, "Banana republic?
What is a banana republic?"
Then I had to go into this, you
know, the long lecture of what a
banana republic is, because in
Persian it sounded very funny.
>> HINOJOSA: You would allow
yourself to push back against
your interrogators sometimes.
Not often.
What gave you that kind of
like... that strength at that
moment, to say, "I am going to
push back; I am going to point
out the silliness in their own
thought"?
>> ESFANDIARI: There was so much
one can take, you know.
I'm a very rational person.
And for days and days and days
you hear... you sit there and
hear a lot of nonsense.
At some stage you can't take it
anymore, and therefore that's
when I would push back, really,
and I would say, "Okay, I think
you are wrong.
I think you don't understand how
these things function in the
real world."
>> HINOJOSA: Would you say it
kind of like that, in that kind
of a tone?
>> ESFANDIARI: Sure, sure.
>> HINOJOSA: Of a stern mother
almost?
>> ESFANDIARI: Sure, and I would always tell
them, "Look, I can easily be
your grandmother.
I don't know how old your
mothers are or your grandmothers
are," you know.
I never, you know... I was
blindfolded taken to
interrogation, and I had two
interrogators.
When the second one, who was the
boss, was there, I had to sit
and face the wall.
>> HINOJOSA: It's so crazy.
Now, in the end, after 105 days,
you are released.
They give you a gift, a parting
gift of poetry, a beautiful book
of poetry.
But why, in the end, do you
think you were released?
Did it have to do with those
emails that those of us here in
this country were sending?
What was the ultimate decision
as to why?
>> ESFANDIARI: I think the international
pressure had a lot to do with my
release.
It really did.
I mean, I didn't know-- I was in
prison, completely cut off from
the rest of the world.
>> HINOJOSA: And did you think
that people in the United States
cared, knew?
>> ESFANDIARI: Absolutely not.
All I knew is that my husband
would do everything he can to
get me out.
But I didn't know that they
had... really there was a whole
world working on my behalf, all
the way from Japan to Brazil,
you know?
I mean, it was amazing.
I found out once I was released.
But I think there was a big
discussion going on internally
in the intelligence ministry
among the people who arrested me
and who were opposed to my
arrest.
In the beginning, when they
arrested me, the more radical
element of the intelligence
ministry prevailed.
In the end, when they released
me, it was because the office of
the leader intervened and the
more moderate elements in the
intelligence ministry finally
got their way and said, "Okay,
this is becoming too
embarrassing for us.
Let her go."
Because I was released in
September and President
Ahmadinejad comes every year
towards the end of September to
attend the United Nations...
>> HINOJOSA: The United States,
right, of course.
>> ESFANDIARI: ...meeting in the U.S.
And I think they decided that he
would probably face a barrage of
questions about arresting a
67-year-old grandmother and...
>> HINOJOSA: I think he might
have, yes.
I think he might have found a
lot of people protesting and
probably a lot of women.
Your cause for women academics,
for women journalists, for women
activists, for feminists, your
cause became so important.
And I think that there are many
people who don't know about the
nature of the Iranian women's
movement.
It is a very strong and
historical movement of women in
Iran.
And you were a part of that as
well.
>> ESFANDIARI: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: Talk a little bit
about that history of women's
engagement.
Because, you know, so many
people now in this country just
see the veiled Iranian woman,
who seems submissive, who seems
powerless.
In fact, it's quite different.
>> ESFANDIARI: Actually, even today... let
me start with today and go back.
Even today, Iranian women are
not submissive.
Absolutely not.
You know, for the last 30 years,
it has been the women who have
formed the only group who stood
up to the regime because the
idea of this regime was to send
women back to their homes.
You know, they had served their
purpose, they had come out, they
had protested in favor of
overthrowing the monarchy, the
establishment of an Islamic
republic.
Thank you very much, go home.
But women were not going to go
home, and they started fighting
at every step of the way, every
new law that was passed in
restricting women's rights in
Iran.
Just to give you an example, the
age of marrying was lowered
after the revolution from 18...
for girls, from 18 to nine.
>> HINOJOSA: To nine?
>> ESFANDIARI: To nine, which is puberty in
Islam.
There was such an outcry.
There was so much protest, so
much activity that finally,
after 20 years, ten years ago
they increased it to 13.
But this does not mean that
every Iranian girl is married
off by the age of 13; on the
contrary, the mean age of
marriage in Iran for girls is
now over 20.
But still, it was the women who
pushed and pushed and pushed.
And women from all strata of the
society.
I mean, I can't believe that the
conservative woman wants to
marry off her daughter at the
age of 13.
Or, for example, the right to
seek a divorce.
Or polygamy.
You know, or political
participation of women.
All these things were taken away
from women, you know.
And it was the women who were
pushing back from... from this.
And in 2006, a group of women
and men started a campaign in
Iran to collect a million
signatures to do away with all
discrimination against women.
The leader of the campaign now
is sitting in jail.
When I was in jail, they would
constantly arrest members of the
campaign, bring them to prison,
release them, arrest another
group.
So this has been an ongoing
situation.
But all these activities go back
to the early days of the 20th
century, when the Iranian
women's movement started and
started, you know, demanding
their rights and have been
pushing since for equal rights.
>> HINOJOSA: In fact, the
Iranian government now is quite
worried about the women's
movement.
>> ESFANDIARI: Sure.
>> HINOJOSA: Because they worry
that if the women's movement
actually takes off, it could be
something that could be very
much a threat to the government.
>> ESFANDIARI: In prison, Maria, they were
telling me all the time that,
"We can deal with any protest
except with the women's movement
because what can we do if
suddenly we have a hundred
thousand women in the street of
Tehran and in each big city?
We cannot arrest all of them; we
cannot shoot them."
I mean, they really were
concerned.
>> HINOJOSA: Why did they say...
why would they say that to you?
If you were an enemy, why would
they reveal the fact that they
felt weak in front of the face
of the women's movement?
>> ESFANDIARI: You know, they also wanted to
show the other side of it.
They would try and explain to
me, maybe because I came across
as a very rational person, they
wanted to show also occasionally
that they can be rational, too,
and say, "Look, we are doing
these things because we are
concerned."
They would never say "scared,"
but I knew they were scared.
"We are concerned about the
women's movement."
And that's why an international
women's league, when you
have a thousand women gathering
in park, they just go arrest
them, you know, disperse them.
And you saw what happened after
the presidential election of
June 2009.
I mean, there were young women
and men, shoulder to shoulder,
standing with each other,
demonstrating in the streets of
Tehran.
And they went viciously after
them.
>> HINOJOSA: Women in Iran now
actually have the higher
registration in terms of
college, but still they face all
of these restrictions.
And the whole history of the
veil in Iran is actually in...
because when the shah was there,
they wanted to make that the
veil was taken away.
And then the revolution happens
and the veil is imposed,
stricter conditions on the veil.
And now it seems as if you never
quite know if, you know, if
you're supposed to be covered,
how much you're supposed to be
covered, if you can sh...
talk to us about the subtle ways
that Iranian women can manifest
their protest against this.
>> ESFANDIARI: Officially, you are supposed
to observe the Islamic dress
code, which is you have to cover
your head and you have to wear
loose robe or a long veil.
But, again, in incremental step,
the younger generation have
managed to reformulate this
Islamic dress code.
And now on the streets of
Tehran, you see young women
walking in very tight jeans,
very short robes and a
skimpy piece of cloth on their
head, which is meant to be their
head cover.
So if you have thousands doing
this, what can you do?
>> HINOJOSA: And do you have
thousands of women...
>> ESFANDIARI: You have tens of thousands of
women.
>> HINOJOSA: Wearing tight pants
on the streets of Tehran?
>> ESFANDIARI: Tight pants, you have seen
that, and short robes and
wearing makeup and just a very
sort of short, loose scarf.
And there is nothing you can do
about it.
>> HINOJOSA: But it could turn
out that in... that tomorrow,
suddenly they decide that that
is not allowed and suddenly they
could be arrested?
>> ESFANDIARI: It is not allowed anyway, and
on a daily basis, quite a few
are arrested.
>> HINOJOSA: So it's happened,
the arrests.
>> ESFANDIARI: It has been happening for the
last 30 years, but women have
ignored it.
These young women have
completely ignored this dress
code, you know.
And they can because in the
early days of the revolution,
you were supposed to wear somber
colors-- black, dark brown, dark
blue.
Now, you don't see any of such
things among the younger
generation.
You see them looking very
colorful, you know.
I mean, wearing pink and red and
you name it.
>> HINOJOSA: And how much does
access to the Internet, to, you
know, popular culture
worldwide-- not just the U.S.
but worldwide-- how much has
that been a factor?
And how much is that a fear
factor for the government there?
>> ESFANDIARI: It's a fear factor more than
anything else.
Because there are 30 million
people who have access to the
Internet out of the population
of 70 million.
>> HINOJOSA: 30 million out of
70?
>> ESFANDIARI: Out of 70, so it means almost
half of the people have somehow
access to the Internet.
Plus, Iran has one of the
largest number of bloggers in
the world.
So you have these Iranian
bloggers, and then people have
cell phone.
Every other Iranian has access
to a cell phone, if not every
Iranian.
And so they do text messaging,
they're on Twitter, they're on
Facebook, they blog.
So, I mean, this protest
movement is a very different
protest movement than the one
in... that lead to the
revolution in 1978, '79.
This is a very different one
because this is an instant
messaging takes place, you know?
The government, after the June
election, expelled all the
foreign journalists from Iran by
refusing to renew their permit.
But then they had on their hands
30 million journalists...
>> HINOJOSA: On the ground.
>> ESFANDIARI: ...on the ground because
everybody, to use their cell
phone...
>> HINOJOSA: And we were all
getting information from...
>> ESFANDIARI: Yes, and you were all getting
information from them at this
end.
>> HINOJOSA: So, finally, Haleh,
you have not gone back to Iran
since you were detained there.
You say you cannot go back.
Are you optimistic?
Should we be optimistic about
the future of Iran?
>> ESFANDIARI: Look, I'm an optimist by
nature, and I believe this
repressive phase that is going
on in Iran today-- and it's one
of the worst periods of... in
the history of the Iranian
revolution-- the sheer number of
arrests, torture, killing, and
what we have seen in the streets
and what is happening in the
prison.
But I think the Green Movement
has a future.
And it is an indigenous
movement; it's not run by people
abroad.
And it's not even influenced by
them.
So... and I don't think that the
government will succeed in
killing the movement completely.
I think there is an urge among
the almost 70 percent who are
under the age of 30.
You cannot restrain them; you
cannot restrict their movement.
They have demands and they will
come out to get them.
>> HINOJOSA: And we are so
thankful that you came out alive
from this experience.
It's just been an honor.
>> ESFANDIARI: Thank you.
>> HINOJOSA: Thank you, Dr.
Haleh Esfandiari, thank you so
much.
>> ESFANDIARI: Thank you very much.
>> HINOJOSA: Continue the
conversation at
wgbh.org/oneonone.
Captioned by
Media Access Group at WGBH
access.wgbh.org
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