Transcript
>> HINOJOSA: Long after the Iron
Curtain collapsed and China and
Vietnam embraced free markets,
Cuba's communist system
continues.
50 years after the revolution,
is Cuba ready for change?
A conversation with former
Havana bureau chief from the
Associated Press, Anita Snow.
I'm Maria Hinjosa.
This is One on One.
Anita Snow, you spent ten years
living in Havana as the bureau
chief for the Associated Press.
In fact, you opened the office
there.
Prior to that you lived for
several years in Mexico.
But let's talk about Havana.
Rare opportunity that we get to
talk with somebody who's lived
in Havana for ten years.
So, hard to sum up ten years,
but what was it like?
>> SNOW: Well, I think it was the most
interesting period of my career,
and challenging, and ultimately
satisfying, but it was really
the hardest for many different
for many different...
>> HINOJOSA: Because?
>> SNOW: Well, to open the bureau
there was quite a challenge.
The AP hadn't been... hadn't had
a permanent presence in Cuba for
almost three decades.
So basically it was my job to
find an office space, furnish
it...
>> HINOJOSA: Hire the people.
>> SNOW: Hire the people.
And you had to hire them through
the Cuban government employment
agency.
>> HINOJOSA: How long did the
whole process take?
>> SNOW: About two years.
>> HINOJOSA: Just to open the
office?
>> SNOW: Well, no.
I mean, we opened the office,
but it took... probably took
about two years until it was all
outfitted.
>> HINOJOSA: Okay, so your
biggest misconception about...
because you had spent some time,
you had covered... you and I
both were there when the Pope
was there in 1997.
But what was the biggest
misconception that you had about
what it would be like, as a
journalist, to live and cover
Cuba?
>> SNOW: I thought it was going to be
easier.
>> HINOJOSA: Really?
>> SNOW: Yeah, I thought it was going
to be... I had no idea how hard
it was going to be.
>> HINOJOSA: So what was so hard
about it?
>> SNOW: Once we were set up, it was
hard to report, because access
was really limited.
>> HINOJOSA: Well, a lot of
people find that one of the
things why you are such a rock
star in international
journalism, if you will, is the
fact that you, Anita Snow, for
ten years were essentially able
to keep your chops as a solid
fact-based journalist, but you
were also able to be essentially
critical of the Cuban government
and stay employed, keep your...
you know, your bosses satisfied.
It's... a lot of people just
say, "How were you able to
please, you know, the Cubans so
they didn't kick you out, and at
the same time be a really strong
reporter?"
>> SNOW: Well, I just... you had to
walk a pretty straight line.
And it's the one thing the AP
does the best.
I mean, it kind of sort of
balanced balanced reporting and
neutral language.
When the Cubans would get upset
with our reportage, which
happened occasionally, it was
usually because of the tone, or
because... or if there was an
error of fact.
I mean, if there was error of
fact we always corrected,
obviously.
But the tone seemed to really
kind of be a key... a key
problem for them.
>> HINOJOSA: Now, a lot of
Americans, you know, are like,
"Well, what do you mean, the
Cubans would get upset?"
So you actually... you'd get a
phone call, and they would say
things like, "Ms. Snow, we need
you to come down to the press
center, because we need to talk
about that last piece you
wrote."
>> SNOW: Yes.
They call that a convocatoria.
>> HINOJOSA: There's a name?
>> SNOW: Yeah, you were convoked.
>> HINOJOSA: You were convoked.
>> SNOW: To come down and have a chat
about your story.
>> HINOJOSA: And they'd have
your story in front of them.
>> SNOW: They'd have your story, and
they'd have it, you know...
>> HINOJOSA: Highlighted.
>> SNOW: They would have it
highlighted, and we'd talk about
it.
Which was fine, you know?
I figure if I sign a story or
somebody in my bureau writes the
story, we can talk about it.
I mean, I think we have to be
responsible for what we sign our
name on.
So I was happy to talk to them
about it.
I didn't always agree with them,
and if I didn't agree with them
I told them, you know, "I
disagree."
But we'd talk about it, you
know?
And I think they appreciated
that.
I mean, I think they appreciated
that I wouldn't get defensive
and I wouldn't get ornery, and I
was willing to discuss
everything.
>> HINOJOSA: So did you have a
situation where you were, as a
journalist, kind of being
watched?
Did you think, "Okay, if I go
out and I interview this person,
there's a chance that the Cuban
government or officials will
come and clamp down on this
person because they spoke to a
reporter"?
Was that kind of your daily...
or was that not how you operated
on a daily basis?
>> SNOW: It depended on who you were
talking to and what you were
talking to them about.
For instance, when we'd go
interview Elizardo Sanchez, who
is a very well-known dissident,
and he's a veteran human rights
activist, there's a guy who sits
in a car right out in front of
his house.
>> HINOJOSA: Really?
>> SNOW: Yeah.
He's, like, right there.
>> HINOJOSA: Oh, my god.
>> SNOW: And I remember going to see
Elizardo, and I'd see the guy,
and I'd say, "Hey, how's it
going?"
And he would, like, look at me
like this, right?
But it's... I mean, it was
really obvious, at least with
the dissidents.
Now, we assumed that we were
being monitored too, but in our
case it wasn't so obvious.
But we'd just have to assume
that they were keeping an eye
on...
>> HINOJOSA: Well, let's talk
about what that's like.
Because if you're an American,
American living in Cuba, and if
you're an American journalist
living in Cuba, you were being
watched.
You were being spied on.
>> SNOW: We assumed.
>> HINOJOSA: I mean, you
assumed.
>> SNOW: We assumed, yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: What does that do
to you, when you're thinking,
"Okay, well, this guy is parking
my car, but is he really just
parking my car, or is he..." you
know, or, "The woman who's
cleaning my house, is she really
cleaning my house, or is she
picking up..." did that... did
you let that get into your head,
about the fact that that's your
life in Havana?
>> SNOW: Well, I mean, I was cognizant
of it, and quite frankly I did
see a lot of people write down
my car license plates at
different parking lots and
stuff.
They would... you know, that was
sort of a matter of course.
I mean, I remember going to the
clinic, the health clinic for
foreigners, and every car that
was parked down there they'd
write down their license plate,
every single one.
>> HINOJOSA: We talked about the
fact that you assumed that your
phone line was being tapped.
>> SNOW: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: But when you think
about what's happening in the
United States, or what was
happening during the ten years
when you were living in Havana,
and now you kind of come back
and you're like, "Hmm, Americans
were being eavesdropped on by
their own government, too."
>> SNOW: I was being... actually, when
I was in Mexico... I actually
got proof that I was being
bugged when I lived in Mexico
when I was covering Chiapas.
I had a guy from TelMex check it
out for me, and he said I was
being bugged from three
different sources.
>> HINOJOSA: So how do you
operate as a journalist like
that?
>> SNOW: Well, you can still make your
calls and do reporting.
I don't really care.
I'm not doing anything wrong.
They're already going to know
who I talk to, because I'm going
to publish the stories.
And if they want to listen to
all my boring conversations with
my sister, you know, whatever.
I mean, and then just after a
while you just get used to it,
because if you worry about it,
you waste a lot of time worrying
about it.
>> HINOJOSA: Okay, but is there
a psychological... now that you
have a little bit of distance...
you left Havana several months
ago.
Now you're living in Cambridge.
With a little bit of distance,
do you look and say, "Wow, I
really was affected by my time
in Cuba"?
Or are you thinking, "Wow, I
really miss Cuba," you know?
I mean, what's the balance for
you?
>> SNOW: I think I was really affected
by my time in Cuba, just kind of
worn out.
>> HINOJOSA: Can you tell me
about that?
>> SNOW: Yeah, you know, I came
here... you know, I came to
Cambridge for this fellowship at
Harvard, which is fantastic.
>> HINOJOSA: The Nieman
Fellowship.
>> SNOW: The Neiman Fellowship.
And, like, the first few weeks I
was here I slept all the time.
I was just exhausted.
You know, because it was a lot
of hard work for a lot of long
years.
>> HINOJOSA: There was, like, an
emotional, a psychological
exhaustion?
>> SNOW: Yeah, I think that was part
of it, too.
And physical, you know?
It's just like... I don't know.
Covering a place like Cuba,
you're kind of waiting for the
big story all the time, you
know?
You know, we're watching Fidel,
you know, because everybody's
like, "When..." you know, "When
Fidel dies, it's going to be a
big story."
The problem is, it's not an
adrenaline story.
It's not like going to
Afghanistan, or covering a story
where you have adrenaline that
keeps you going.
So it's a little bit... it
becomes wearing on you.
I mean, you don't have the
adrenaline to keep you going, so
after a while you start getting
kind of burned out, really.
>> HINOJOSA: And you as a
reporter took some amazing
challenges.
I mean, again, you are a rock
star in terms of international
reporters.
>> SNOW: Oh, thank you.
>> HINOJOSA: But there are a lot
of people who also can't
stand Anita Snow.
>> SNOW: That's true.
>> HINOJOSA: Huge critics.
One of the things that you did
was in the year 2007, you
decided to live on the same
exact food rations and salary as
if you were a regular Cuban.
Paint that picture for us.
What does that look like?
Like, help Americans who are
watching this understand what
that looks like.
>> SNOW: Well, you know, I had thought
about it for a while, you know?
And I remember talking... you
know, we talked about it.
Some of the other reporters, we
talked about it.
And a lot of people were afraid
to do it, because they were
afraid they were going to be
criticized, because they knew,
you know?
And I thought about it, but I
thought, "You know, wouldn't it
be interesting?"
Because the thing is you can't
really appreciate... and I don't
pretend to appreciate totally
how a Cuban lives.
But I think it was the one area
of their life where you could
try to get kind of a sense of
what a Cuban has to go to to eat
every day.
And it's not easy.
>> HINOJOSA: Just being a
regular Cuban who's not... who
doesn't have access to dollars
coming in from family, so just
surviving on the Cuban peso and
trying to eat every day.
You spend how much of your day,
let's say, on a daily basis,
dealing with, like, "Where am I
going to get it, how am I going
to buy it, where am I going to
find it?"
>> SNOW: Well, I did it for a month,
and I spent a couple hours every
day at this.
You know, because you have to go
to lots of different places to
get stuff.
>> HINOJOSA: It's not like you
can go to the corner grocery
store.
>> SNOW: No, there isn't a corner
grocery store.
I mean, there might be... there
might be a small store with,
like, some of the stuff you
need, but not all of the stuff,
you know?
And then you have to go to the
farmers market, and then you
ahve to go to the... you know,
the place where you would get
your ration.
Actually, that's in a couple of
different places.
>> HINOJOSA: You go with your
little book.
>> SNOW: Uh-huh.
>> HINOJOSA: And they check
off...
>> SNOW: Well, I didn't have a book,
but that's what Cubans do.
>> HINOJOSA: Right, right.
And they just check off what
they gave you, this much rice.
>> SNOW: Exactly.
>> HINOJOSA: So were you hungry?
>> SNOW: I don't know if I had real
hunger, but I had yearnings for
lots of different things I
wasn't eating, including meat,
because didn't eat hardly any
meat for a month.
And eggs get kind of boring
after... eggs and beans.
>> HINOJOSA: But the whole food
thing in Havana... I mean, one
of the things that makes it hard
for you also is the fact that
you had... even though it was
hard work as a journalist in
Havana, you had an okay life.
You lived in an amazing
penthouse that looked over, you
know, the ocean.
It was your kind of getaway.
But how do you really, then,
understand the lives of Cubans,
who would say, "Bye, Anita, I'll
see you later," and you knew
that they were going back to,
you know, an apartment where
maybe six people were all
crammed together, where their
futures were completely unclear.
How'd you deal with that?
>> SNOW: I don't think a foreigner
could ever fully understand the
life of a Cuban, unless they
move into their house, I
suppose.
>> HINOJOSA: And are Cuban
people... there's a lot of talk
about... you know, there's a
tremendous amount of joy in
Cuba, and there is.
But also in my notes I wrote
down, "What about depression of
the Cuban people?"
>> SNOW: Cubans are pretty cheerful
people generally.
They're very sort of a musical
people.
They sing a lot, and, I mean,
just walking down the street,
it's just a very musical
society.
The music there is fantastic.
>> HINOJOSA: Did you find the
Cuban people to be open and
welcoming?
>> SNOW: Oh, yeah, they're very open.
They're very curious about
foreigners.
You know, strangers will just
come up and start talking to you
and want to know all about you
and stuff.
>> HINOJOSA: And on the whole,
would you say that the Cuban
people... hard to generalize,
but on the whole, would you say
that they are well educated,
very well educated, you know,
not so well educated, aware of
the world?
>> SNOW: I think they're pretty well
educated.
I think they... you know, a lot
of Cubans now have access to
illegal satellite TV.
And of course they're in contact
with their relatives abroad, so
they're pretty well informed.
>> HINOJOSA: In fact, this is
from one of your articles.
You said that the Cuban
government faces a kind of
opposition of sorts from
rappers, gays, dissident
bloggers, private satellite dish
installers, and women with
tattoos and belly pierces.
>> SNOW: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: There's this
undercurrent of... what would
you call it in Cuba?
Is it resistance, is it... what
is it?
>> SNOW: Well, there are people who
aren't totally with the program.
They're not really dissidents
per se.
I mean, in our society we might
just consider them normal
people, really.
And they're people who want a...
they want something more.
>> HINOJOSA: They're essentially
tired of seeing...
>> SNOW: They want some options, I
think.
I think that's really what
people want.
They want some options.
They mostly want economic
options.
>> HINOJOSA: And it's not like
they're all looking to leave
Cuba as soon as possible.
>> SNOW: No.
>> HINOJOSA: People like their
country.
>> SNOW: Yeah.
I mean, I think they'd like to
be able to leave and come back.
I mean, it's not like
everybody's scrambling to get
out of there and never come back
ever.
I mean, I think they'd like to
be able to leave and see their
family in Miami, or wherever
they may be, and come back, and
leave and come back, and leave
and come back, like any other
country.
>> HINOJOSA: So what's the more
important story that you're kind
of following now?
Is the more important story what
the Obama administration is
doing in terms of opening up
relations with Cuba, or is the
story what's happening
internally with Cuba?
When will Fidel pass away?
What will happen when he passes
away?
What will happen to Raul Castro
and who kind of succeeds him?
So which are you kind of
watching most right now?
>> SNOW: I actually think the Obama
administration has the power to
promote change in Cuba more
quickly than perhaps even Raul
Castro by its policies toward
Cuba.
Perhaps opening up travel to all
Americans, for instance, which
is now banned.
The Obama administration has
made good on his campaign
promises to open up travel, full
travel, for Cuban Americans
living in the United States to
visit their family.
>> HINOJOSA: Which is
extraordinary.
>> SNOW: Which is extraordinary, which
is actually more important than
I think a lof of people realize.
But most Americans still can't
travel there.
So I think if more Americans
started traveling there, that
could create an impact.
>> HINOJOSA: So when you were in
Havana, you saw a lot of
Americans in Havana and the rest
of Cuba.
Who are they?
What kind of Americans are going
down to Cuba?
>> SNOW: Well, there were more
coming... there were more going
there during the Clinton
administration, and a lot of
people came.
A lot of people came.
They came with little league
groups, they came with alumni
groups from universities, they
came... they came on tours of...
you know, architectural tours,
salsa dancing classes.
They're just people who are
interested in seeing the place.
>> HINOJOSA: And when you have
these groups of Americans going
into Cuba like that, I mean, it
seems kind of simple.
It's like, "Well, you know, a
little league comes."
Can that change?
Can that help actually transform
what's going on in Cuba?
And how?
>> SNOW: Well, I think the contacts
between Cubans and Americans.
I remember even watching some of
these little league teams play,
and it was incredible.
Like, they would make friends.
The little boys would make
friends, and they'd trade
t-shirts, and they'd talk to
each other.
And Cubans got a sense of what
Americans are like, and kind of
what our ideals are, perhaps.
As far as I know, Americans were
never prevented from going to
Soviet Union or East Bloc
countries.
Now, I may be wrong about that,
but I... as far as I know, that
was never a problem.
>> HINOJOSA: So, the embargo.
There are a lot of people in
Cuba who say if the embargo is
lifted, that would be a huge
problem for the Cuban
government.
Because what you hear in Cuba
day after day, and you saw it
with the big posters that are
everywhere in the streets of
Havana, which, you know... el
bloqueo, the embargo, is the
worst thing that the Yankee
imperialists are doing to Cuba.
What would happen if President
Obama just said, "You know what,
the embargo's gone, free trade
between these two countries"?
>> SNOW: It would remove the communist
government's excuse for all the
problems that exist.
I think that's the biggest thing
it would do.
Now, once it's gone, or once...
if it's gone, the Cuban
government can control the
trade.
They can decide whether to
import and export, obviously.
But if the bloqueo, as they say,
is gone, their biggest excuse
for all their economic problems
is gone, too.
>> HINOJOSA: And then what
happens?
>> SNOW: Well, then everybody's going
to say, "But why is there a
problem?"
>> HINOJOSA: Like, if we
can't...
>> SNOW: "Why are there shortages?
Why can't I find toilet paper,"
right?
And then you're not going to
have an answer for that.
Yeah, they aren't going to have
an answer for that.
>> HINOJOSA: Now, Cuba is... I
mean, a lot of people have this
fascination, and it really is
extraordinary, and I've been
lucky enough to have gone to
Havana several times.
One of my top five favorite
cities in the world.
People have an image of a place
that, you know, is kind of in
this moment in time, hasn't
transformed.
You've got the 1950s
automobiles.
But in fact, there's a lot of
stuff that's happening.
You have international
businesspeople in Cuba, they're
making a killing, essentially--
the Brits, the Mexicans, the
Spaniards, the Germans, the
Canadians, the Australians.
Everybody except for the United
States.
>> SNOW: That's true.
I mean, there are... well,
actually, I do know a few
Americans there, and I'm not
quite sure how they've been able
to get around that.
>> HINOJOSA: Who are doing a
little bit of...
>> SNOW: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: ...business
situations.
>> SNOW: Yeah, I was always curious
about that, like, "How's that
possible?"
Yeah, there are foreign business
folks there.
There aren't that many.
And of course, you know, the
Cuban government can control
that, too, because it can
control foreign investment, you
know?
It has lots of ways to put
brakes on stuff.
I mean, even if Americans are
given carte blanche by the US
government to travel to Cuba,
the Cuban government can control
that as well with visas.
It doesn't have to accept every
single American tourist who
wants to get on a plane or a
boat or...
>> HINOJOSA: All right, so what
do you know of in terms of Raul
Castro, who is now in power, 76
years old.
You and I both...
>> SNOW: 78.
>> HINOJOSA: 78 years old, oh,
my gosh.
Boy, that was fast.
Okay, and you and I both, as
journalists, equally upset about
the fact that Raul Castro gives
his first interview to an
American, and it happens to be
Sean Penn.
But what is Raul Castro....
what's his plan?
I mean, is there going to be a
difference there or not?
>> SNOW: Well, he's done a few things.
They've been relatively minor.
I get the sense that he would
like to open things up a little
bit econom... you know, in the
economic arena.
He's said to admire the China
model, or perhaps even the
Vietnamese model.
But I think that's been stopped
by the presence of his brother,
Fidel Castro, who's still alive,
and then the old guard, which
kind of back up Fidel.
But he has done a few things.
I think one of the things that's
sort of been overlooked, which I
consider to be extremely
important, was when he got rid
of this ban on Cubans being able
to stay at hotels, tourist
hotels and tourist resorts,
because that was a really sore
point for a lot of Cubans.
>> HINOJOSA: Well, because it
was like apartheid within your
own country, right?
>> SNOW: Right.
But that's gone now.
In fact, in the first few weeks,
there are a few journalists who
have offices over at the Hotel
Nacional, and one of them went
to chat, and about half of the
people staying at the hotel were
Cubans.
>> HINOJOSA: Oh, my god.
>> SNOW: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: Just because they
could, they wanted to stay in
the Hotel Nacional.
>> SNOW: "Oh, let's go stay in the
hotel now."
>> HINOJOSA: So this image,
Fidel Castro passes away, and
there's havoc in Havana, and,
you know, the Cubans who live in
the United States are going to
rush back into Cuba, this is a
picture that is not real.
>> SNOW: No, that's not real.
>> HINOJOSA: What's it really
going to look like?
>> SNOW: It's going to look like a big
state funeral.
It's going to look like a big
state funeral, it's going to be
a lot of heads of state.
It'll be very sort of dignified
and formal.
And...
>> HINOJOSA: But no protests out
on the street, like...
>> SNOW: No, Cubans don't do that.
They just don't.
They don't get out pots and
pans.
They just don't do that.
I mean, this idea that people
have, it's not real.
>> HINOJOSA: And the
relationship of the Cuban people
to Fidel, I've always found this
very interesting.
It's like they're tired of him,
because he's been around for so,
so, so long, they dislike a lot
of things that he represents,
but they also don't necessarily
walk around saying, "I hate..."
I mean...
>> SNOW: Well, they don't walk around
saying, "I wish he was dead."
Well, a few people do.
Not that many.
But he's... you know, he's like
their dad or their uncle or
their... you know, their
annoying uncle.
You know, the guy you see at
Christmas, you know?
Like...
>> HINOJOSA: Again and again.
>> SNOW: You know, sometimes he gives
you a a headache, but he's your
uncle, you know?
You don't say, "Oh, I wish Uncle
Jorge would die."
I mean, nobody does that, right?
>> HINOJOSA: I suppose not.
So it's hard to predict, but
give a sense... okay, Fidel
passes, Raul Castro, 78, passes.
Then what?
>> SNOW: Oh, that's a good question.
I've been thinking about that a
lot lately.
There's no one person I see.
I think the military might start
taking a bigger role.
>> HINOJOSA: And what does that
mean?
I mean, is that a positive
thing?
>> SNOW: It could be.
>> HINOJOSA: Really?
>> SNOW: Yeah, it could be.
I think there are some reforming
elements in the military.
The military plays a pretty big
role in the economy now.
And the companies some of these
former military guys run are run
extremely efficiently.
But I'm not sure, like, what
form the government would be in.
I mean, I don't know if it would
necessarily be a military junta.
But I do think the military
would take a stronger role.
I mean, the military is really
the strongest institution that
exists in Cuba.
More so than the communist
party, I would say.
>> HINOJOSA: All right, so we've
got one minute left.
Let me ask you this question--
you think of Cuba, do you think
of optimism, potential, hope,
you know, creativity,
possibility, or do you think of
Cuba and think, "Another decade
or two of really rough times for
the people there?"
>> SNOW: Oh, I'd like to be optimistic
for the Cuban people.
You know, I'm really fond of the
Cuban people.
I spent a lot of time there, and
I just... I mean, I don't think
it'll happen as fast as a lot of
people would want, but I think
it's going to happen.
I do think things are going to
open up there eventually.
You know, and I think people
deserve a chance, people deserve
some options.
>> HINOJOSA: All right, and
we'll see if Anita Snow makes it
back to Havana or not.
Thanks for joining us, Anita.
A real pleasure.
All right, thanks.
Continue the conversation at
wgbh.org/oneonone.
Captioned by
Media Access Group at WGBH
access.wgbh.org
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