Oct. 8, 2009 : The Clinton Tapes

>> WHEN WE CONTINUE THE
CLINTON TAPES.

>> PULITZER PRIZE WINNING
AUTHOR TAYLOR BRANCH HAD
UNUSUAL ACCESS TO PRESIDENT
BILL CLINTON DURING HIS
EIGHT YEARS IN OFFICE.
CLINTON MET WITH BRANCH FOR
79 RECORDED CONVERSATIONS
ABOUT THE PRESIDENTIAL
EXPERIENCE.
NOW THOSE CONVERSATIONS ARE
DOCUMENTED IN A NEW BOOK
ENTITLED THE CLINTON TAPES,
WRESTLING HISTORY WITH THE
PRESIDENT.
AND TAYLOR BRANCH IS HERE.
AMONG OTHER THINGS ABOUT THE
BOOK, I'M FASCINATED ABOUT
THE PROCESS, THE DEAL YOU
MADE WITH HIM ABOUT THE
RECORDINGS, ABOUT YOU COULD
DOUBLE RECORDINGS, ABOUT HOW
YOU AGREED THAT HE SHOULD
HOLD ON TO THESE.
I MEAN HOW DID IT ALL COME
ABOUT?

>> IT CAME LOOKING FOR ME.
I DIDN'T GO LOOKING FOR IT.
I HAD KNOWN HIM 20 YEARS
EARLIER WHEN WE WERE KIDS IN
OUR 20s.
AND AS PRESIDENT-ELECT HE
SENT FOR ME AND SAID HE'S
BEEN READING MY CIVIL RIGHTS
HISTORY AND WAS CONCERNED
ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE
RECORD THAT WOULD SURVIVE
HIM AND ME FOR FUTURE
HISTORIANS THAT SINCE WE
WEREN'T GOING TO TAPE-RECORD
PRESIDENTIAL RECORDINGS LIKE
JOHNSON AND KENNEDY DID, HE
WAS WORRIED THAT THE HISTORY
WOULD BE DRY AND NOT VIVID.
AND DID I AGREE.
AND AS IT HAPPENED, IT WAS
RIGHT OVER THE HEART OF THE
PLATE FOR ME BECAUSE I HAD
BEEN VERY CONCERNED ABOUT
THAT.
THAT IT HAS BEEN GONE, THEY
ARE SO VALUABLE.
THOSE REAL PERSONAL THINGS.
AND HIS AIDS TOLD ME THAT
THEY WERE HOSTILE TO VOTE.
ANYWAY WE WENT BACK AND
FORTH.
WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT TO
MAKE SURE.

>> AND IT'S LITTLE.

>> AND IS IT LEGAL AND IS IT
SAFE.
WHATEVER YOU DO WILL IT BE
SUBPOENAED AND THAT SORT OF
THING.
AND AT ONE POINT HE PROPOSED
KINDS OF INSTALLING ME OR
SOMEONE ELSE AS HIS IN-HOUSE
HISTORIAN LIKE ARTHUR
SCHLESSINGER.
I ADVISED HIM AGAINST THAT I
CERTAINLY SAID IF YOU WANT
TO HAVE SOMEBODY IT WON'T BE
ME.
I'M COMMITTED TO FINISHING
MY MARTIN LUTHER KING.
BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS A
GOOD IDEA TO TAKE CONTROL,
WHAT YOU CAN DO IS MAKE THE
BEST HISTORY YOU CAN.
AND KEEP.

>>> IN THE ELECTIONS THAT
ARE NOT PART OF THE RECORD.

>> WHAT IS FASCINATING, HE
BECKONED YOU SOMETIMES MONTH
WAS GO BY.
SOMETIMES WEEKSMENT BUT OVER
THAT TIME, YOU BECAME
EVERYTHING FROM AN ADVISOR,
A THERAPIST, A JOURNALIST,
AN AR CHIVIST.
YOU GAVE HIM FRANK ADVISE
ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THE
PRESS.
HOW DID YOU VIEW YOUR
RELATIONSHIP?

>> I VIEWED IT AS I WAS
WRESTLING WITH HISTORY TOO.
WHAT IS MY ROLE.
BECAUSE I -- THE BECAUSE IT
WAS SECRET AND I WAS GOING
DOWN LATE AT NIGHT AND
RECORDING HIM AND LEAVING
THE TAPES THERE WITH HIM, I
COULDN'T CONSULT ANYBODY.
I COULDN'T TELL ANYBODY I
WAS DOING IT I COULDN'T HAVE
A PEER REVIEW.
I CON SAY AM I ASKING THE
RIGHT QUESTIONS.
AND WHEN HE ASKED ME
QUESTIONS, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO
YOU THINK, SHOULD I FIRE THE
CIA DIRECTOR.
WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO, I
FELL -- I'M ALSO A CITIZEN
AND HE'S NOT JUST THINKING
ABOUT BEING PRESIDENT, HE IS
PRESIDENT.
SO AND ALSO I THOUGHT THAT
THE RAPPORT THAT WE
MAINTAINED HE LIKED ARGUING,
HE LIKED THE GIVE-AND-TAKE.
AND THE FACT THAT IT WAS
OCCURRING LATE AT NIGHT WHEN
HE WAS DOG TIRED AND
DETERMINED TO DO THIS, MADE
ME ALWAYS AT SEE ABOUT
WHETHER I WAS HIS FRIEND,
ADVISOR OR WHAT WOULD BEST
SERVE MY PRIMARY ROLE WHICH
WAS TO ALWAYS GET THE MOST
AMOUNT OF CANDID
RECOLLECTION POSSIBLE ON
TAPE.

>> ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT
YOU ANSWER THAT I HAVE
ALWAYS BEEN CURIOUS ABOUT,
NOT JUST THIS PRESIDENT, BUT
OTHERS WHICH IS HOW THEY
PERCEIVE THEMSELVE THROUGH
THE PREST AND HOW THEY
RESPOND TO IT.
YOU TAKE US THROUGH A LOT OF
TROUBLES -- WHITEWATER, THE
LEWINSKY MATTER, ALL THE
SUPREME COURT AND ATTORNEY
GENERAL ISSUES AND
RESPONDING TO WHAT WAS
WRITTEN ABOUT HIM ABOUT THE
PROMINENT ORGANIZATIONS LIKE
"THE NEW YORK TIMES" TO
ROLLING STONE.
HE REALLY PAID ATTENTION TO
WHAT THE MEDIA WAS SAYING
ABOUT HIM.

>> YES AND OUR RELATIONSHIP
TUMBLED OVER THAT EARLY ON.
I WAS TRYING TO GET ALL
PRESIDENT'S FUSS ABOUT THE
PRESS.
BUT HE DID IT MORE THAN MOST
AT THE BEGINNING BECAUSE HE
THOUGHT THAT THE WHITEWATER
SCANDALS AND CERTAINLY -- TO
HAVE SOMEBODY WITH JUDICIAL
POWER THAT CAN'T BE
CONTROLLED ALLEGING THAT IT
WAS OTHER THAN SUICIDE WAS A
GREAT TRIAL.

>> HE ADMIRED AND RESPECTED
SO MUCH.

>> COULDN'T PUT IT -- WANT
COULDN'T LET GO IT OF.

>> SOME TRIED TO PUT IT A
THREAT.

>> TELEPHONE DIDN'T WORK AND
I WAS TRYING TO GET HIM TO
CHARM THE PRESS EARLY ON AND
HE WOULDN'T DO IT.
HE WOULD JUST COMPLAIN.
HE WOULD CONSULT, IT IS ALL
KIND OF WOUNDED BY THEM.
AND THEN AFTER LOTS OF
TIRADES AND HE THEORIZED WHY
IS THIS, WHY ARE THEY KIND
OF IN CAHOOTS WITH THE
REPUBLICANS BUT THEN HE SAID
THEY'RE NOT THE SAME, MAYBE
IT'S THAT THEY CAN'T FIND
ANY OTHER STORIES.
FINALLY HE STARTED SAYING
MAYBE THEIR CABLE MARKETS
ARE DIVIDING THEIR MARKET SO
MUCH THEY THINK THEY HAVE TO
BE MORE LIKE THE TABLOIDS IN
ORDER TO SURVIVE.

>> HE HAD THAT EARLY ON HE
MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN WRONG.

>> VERY EARLY.
THIS WAS IN THE 19 -- MID
1990.
FINALLY HE JUST SAID LOOK,
I'M EATING MY LIVER OUT.

>> IGNORE THE PRESS AND GET
UP AND DO PIE JOB EVERY DAY.

>> IRONICALLY BY THE END I
WAS MORE UP SET ABOUT "THE
NEW YORK TIMES" AND CHINA
GAIT AND ALLEGATIONS THAT HE
WOULD SELL NUCLEAR SECRETS,
THE WIN HO LI, THAT NUCLEAR
SCIENTIST, I WAS MORE UP SET
THAN HE WAS, IF IT WAS A SPY
THING.

>> -- IT DOESN'T SMELL
RIGHT.

>> YOU HAD A WINDOW TO
SOMETHING THAT EVERY
AMERICAN WHO WAS PAYING
ATTENTION TO THE CLINTON
RELATIONSHIP WONDERED ABOUT,
WITH WAS IT LIKE BETWEEN THE
TWO OF THEM.

>>> TALKING LATE AT NIGHT IN
PAAS, RECORDING INTERVIEWS,
THEY ARE HAVING DINNER,
SOMEBODY MAY BE FIXING THEM
SOMETHING.
CHELSEA WOULD COME IN ASKING
FOR HELP WITH HER HOMEWORK.
I MEAN THEY HAD KIND OF A
NORMAL RHEE T APPEARS FROM
WHAT YOU SAW.

>> I WAS MYSTIFIED BY IT TOO
BECAUSE THEY HAD A -- THERE
WAS A GREAT DEGREE OF WARMTH
AND THEY TALKED CONSTANTLY.
CONSTANT CONVERSATION.
SOMETIMES SHE WOULD EVEN
COME AND KIND OF STAND WITH
HIM HOLDING HANDS WILL WE
WERE TALKING.
BUT THERE WAS AN INTIMATE
ABOUT POLITICS.
SHE WAS SAVVY.
SHE WAS THE STRONGEST ONE
ABOUT HIS AGREEMENT TO HAVE
A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.

>> THEY ONCE THROW ME OUT
THAT IS POLITICS.
SHE SAID NO, BILL,
IMPEACHMENT IS ABOUT ABUSE
OF PRESIDENTIAL POWER AND
THAT'S NO WHAT THIS IS.
THIS A DISORGANIZATION --
DISTORTION OF THAT.

>> TO STABILIZE -- THIS IS
GOING BACK TO HER TIME
WORKING ON NIXON IMPEACHMENT
COMMITTEE.

>> NOW YOU HAVEN'T ACTUALLY
GOTTEN TO HEAR THE TAPES
THAT WAS PART OF THE DEAL.

>> THE TAPES THAT HE AND I
MADE.

>> MY ADVICE TO HIM WAS THAT
THE SAFEST THING WAS FOR HIM
TO HAVE CUSTODY OF HIM.

>> YOU CAME HOME, TOOK
COPIOUS NOTES WHAT DID YOU
DO.

>> SO WHEN I FINISHED EACH
TAPE, I HAD TWO OF THEM IN
CASE ONE MALFUNCTIONED.
AND AT THE END OF I WOULD
REWINE THEM, LABEL THEM,
GIVE THEM TO ME.
AND THE SECOND TERM, HE HID
THEM.
IN THE SECOND TERM HE SHOWED
ME WHERE THEY WERE SO THAT I
COULD PUT THEM AWAY.

>> THEY ARE IN A CLOSET.

>> IN THE CLOSET RIGHT NEXT
TO HIS BEDROOM IN HIS SOCK
DRAWER AND HE HAD THE TWO
BOXING I HAD GIVEN.

>> LIKE ANYBODY WHAT DO.

>> HE HAD THEM BACK THERE
AND TOLD ME TO PUT THEM AWAY
AND MAKE SURE THAT BOTH WERE
THERE.
BUT THEN WHEN I LEFT --

>> I NEVER DID THAT.
ALTHOUGH I DID TAKE, WE HAD
ONE SESSION IN CAMP DAVID
AND I TOOK, HE ASKED ME TO
TAKE THE TAPES HOLE.
BUT I DIDN'T COPY THEM.
I WANTED HIM TO HAVE
ABSOLUTE TRUST THAT THOSE
TAPES WERE HIS AND HIS ALONE.
AND THAT HE CONTROLLED THEM.
AND WHAT I DID THOUGH, BEING
AN HISTORIAN WHO BELIEVED
WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID
MATTERED TO EVERYBODY'S LIFE,
I BELIEVED POLITICS MATTERED.
TO ESTABLISH OR REESTABLISH,
I TOOK MY SAME MACHINE
POPPED ANOTHER TAPE IN AN I
HAD TO DRIVE HOME TO
BALTIMORE.
SO I DIDN'T EVEN HIT MY
PICKUP TRUCK BEFORE I WAS
SAYING IT IS 1:47 A.M. AND
I'M LEAVING THE WHITE HOUSE
AFTER THE 38th SESSION OR
64th SESSION AND LEAVING, IT
WAS ROUGH TONIGHT.
I TOOK THREE TYLENOL, OR
WHATEVER.
AND I WOULD DICTATE
EVERYTHING I COULD REMEMBER
THAT HAPPENED.
AND THIS IS THE BASIS OF
THIS.

>> Rooney: JUST FANTASTIC.
THE CLINTON TAPES.
TAYLOR BRANCH, PLEASURE TO
HAVE YOU HER.