Nov. 24, 2009 : Communion controversy

>> TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON", THE FALLOUT BETWEEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND CONGRESSMAN PATRICK KENNEDY OVER HIS PRO ABORTION STANCE.
PLUS CRYING FOUL.
FEMALE ATHLETES TAKING ON BAD BOY PERSONAS, AND CENTER STAGE WITH SONG BIRD LINDA EDER.
Closed Captioning brought to you by AFLAC: Ask about it at work.
>> GOOD EVENING, I'M JARED BOWEN, IN FOR EMILY ROONEY.
TONIGHT A MEMBER OF THE NATION'S MOST PROMINENT CATHOLIC FAMILY REMAINS IN A HIGHLY PUBLIC FEUD WITH HIS STATE'S HIGHEST RANKING CATHOLIC.
RHODE ISLAND CONGRESSMAN PATRICK KENNEDY AND PROVIDENCE BISHOP THOMAS TOBIN ARE AT ODDS OVER THE PROPOSED ABORTION RESTRICTION IN THE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PACKAGE.
IT'S ALL OVER HOLY COMMUNION.
FOR MANY CATHOLICS KMUN YOUNG IS THE MOST SACRED PART OF MASS.
YET THE BISHOP HAS BANNED HIM FROM RECEIVING COMMUNION BECAUSE OF HIS STANCE ON ABORTION RIGHTS.
TOBIN ADMITS WRITING KENNEDY WITH THE DEMAND IN 2007.
BUT THE BISHOP SAYS THE LETTER WAS WRITTEN IN CONFIDENCE AND THAT HE NEVER EXTENDED THE ORDER TO HIS PRIESTS.
>> THE FACT THAT I HAD INSTRUCTED ALL OF OUR PASTORS NOT TO GIVE HIM HOLY COMMUNION, WHICH IS PATENTLY FALSE, I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE HE CAME UP WITH THAT PIECE OF FICTION.
>> THE DISPUTE ERUPTED OUT OF THE HEALTH CARE DEBATE, AS KENNEDY CRITICIZED THE BISHOPS FOR CALLING FOR TIGHTER RESTRICTIONS ON ABORTION.
>> YOU MEAN TO TELL ME CATHOLIC CHURCH IS GOING TO BE DENYING THOSE PEOPLE LIFE SAVING HEALTH CARE?
I THOUGHT THEY WERE PRO-LIFE.
>> KENNEDY IS FAR FROM AN ANOMALY.
AND OTHER PUBLIC OFFICIALS ARE ALLEYING TO HIS DEFENSE.
LAST NIGHT ATTORNEY GENERAL COAKLEY AND CONGRESSMAN MIKE CAPUANO, BOTH CATHOLIC, CHASTISED TOBIN.
>> IT SEEMS TO ME A LITTLE IRONIC THAT A CHURCH THAT WAS WILLING TOOVER LOOK THE VICTIMIZATION OF MANY CHILDREN OVER SEVERAL YEARS IS NOW TURNING AROUND AND SAYING TO PEOPLE WHO ARE GOOD CHRISTIANS, GOOD CATHOLICS THAT YOU CAN'T JOIN THIS.
>> YOU WONDER WHY PEOPLE STOP GOING TO CHURCH.
AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, MAYBE THEY'VE JUST WRITTEN ME OFF, I DON'T KNOW.
>> BUT THE BISHOP SAYS HE STANDS BY THE CHURCH'S RIGHT TO CRITICIZE POLITICIANS WHO IDENTIFY AS CATHOLICS BUT WHO FLOUT CATHOLIC TEACHINGS.
>> PEOPLE IN PUBLIC POSITIONS ARE HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD BECAUSE OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITY, BECAUSE OF THEIR AUTHORITY.
>> AND JOINING ME NOW ARE THOMAS GROOM, A THEOLOGY PROFESSOR AT BOSTON COLLEGE, ALAN WOLF, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR RELIGION AND AMERICAN PUBLIC LIFE, ALSO AT B. C., AND THOMAS WHALEN, A POLITICAL HISTORIAN AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY.
WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU.
TOM, I'LL START WITH YOU.
WE'LL GET INTO THIS IN A MINUTE, THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED IN OTHER INSTANCES THROUGHOUT HISTORY, BUT GIVEN THAT IT IS FAIRLY RARE, IS THIS AT ALL WARRANT FORWARD THE BISHOP TO DO THIS TO PATRICK KENNEDY?
>> WELL, I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S WARRANTED OR NOT, JARED, BUT I THINK IT'S PROBABLY ILL ADVISED.
IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT THIS IS SUCH A PUBLIC DISCOURSE, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO ACHIEVE ANYTHING POSITIVE.
I DON'T THINK IT'S VERY EDIFYING FOR THE BISHOP TO DISCOURAGE.
I THINK HE ASKED REPRESENTATIVE KENNEDY TO VOLUNTARILY ABSTAIN FROM RECEIVING THE EUCHARIST.
BUT THAT'S TANTAMOUNT TO BANNING HIM FROM DOING THAT.
SO I THINK TO PLATE SIDES THE EUCHARIST THAT WAY IS -- TO POLITICIZE THE EUCHARIST THAT WAY IS ILL ADVISED.
>> BISHOP TOBIN HAS PRIDED HIMSELF IN TAKING THIS INITIATIVE, AND THAT IS IN CONTRAST TO MANY OTHER BISHOPS.
UMTEEN MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE ARE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS VOTED FOR THAT, FOR OR AGAINST THAT BILL, LOTS OF CATHOLIC MEMBERS OF CONGRESS VOTED FOR OR AGAINST IT AND HALF ARE BEING CALLED TO THE CARPET THE SAME WAY.
SO THERE IS SOMETHING PRO-ACTIVE, SHALL WE SAY, IN THE STANCE THAT BISHOP TOBIN IS TAKING.
>> ON THAT POINT, YOU'VE BEEN LOOKING AT THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE HERE.
WHAT OBLIGATIONS DO CATHOLIC POLITICIANS IN THIS COUNTRY AT THIS POINT FEEL TOWARD THE CHURCH?
>> WELL, CATHOLIC POLITICIANS CLEARLY FEEL THAT CHURCH TEACHINGS ARE SOMETHING THEY SHOULD TAKE UNDER ADVISEMENT, THEY SHOULD GIVE IT SERIOUS CONSIDERATION.
BUT NO CATHOLIC POLITICIAN AND CERTAINLY NOT CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY BELIEVES THAT THE CHURCH IS SUCH THAT IT ISSUES EDICTS AND THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE A CATHOLIC POLITICIAN YOU ARE TO FOLLOW THAT EDICT.
WHAT'S SO FASCINATE GOING THIS CASE IS IT TAKES PLACE IN A LARGER CONTEXT OF THE WHOLE QUESTION OF WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A CATHOLIC.
CAN YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL CATHOLIC SAY I'M A CATHOLIC, OR DO YOU NEED THE SEAL OF APPROVAL FROM A CHURCH AUTHORITY, IN WHICH CASE THE CHURCH DEFINES WHO IS A CATHOLIC AND WHO ISN'T.
THAT'S AT THE CORE OF THE ARGUMENT GOING ON HERE, IT SEEMS TO ME.
>> TOM WHALEN, YOU'RE OUR HISTORIAN HERE.
WE HAVE TO WONDER IF FOR TED KENNEDY WERE STILL ALIVE, WOULD THIS BE AN ISSUE.
I KNOW IT DID HAPPEN WITH HIM BACK IN 1938 POST DIVORCE HE WAS ASKED NOT TO TAKE COMMUNION.
BUT IF HE WERE STILL ALIVE, COULD YOU THINK THIS WOULD BE TAKING PLACE?
>> NOT AT ALL.
I THINK THE LARGE ERR ISSUE HERE TOO IS JUST THE OVERALL BLURING BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE IN RECENT DECADES.
IN 1960, JOHN F. KENNEDY RUNS FOR THE PRESIDENT, HE SAYS I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE ORDERS FROM THE VATICAN.
I'M RUNNING ON MY OWN TWO FEET.
AND NOW YOU SEE POLITICIANS FROM ALL DIFFERENT STATES MORE OR LESS COW TOWING TO RELIGIOUS CONSTITUENTS AND SAYING I'M GOING TO DO OR VOTE HOW THEY TELL ME TO VOTE.
AND I THINK THAT'S DISTURBING.
>> THAT'S WHERE I THINK OUR BISHOPS WITH CROSS A LINE.
IT'S PERFECTLY APPROPRIATE FOR A BISHOP TO ARTICULATE, AND IT'S EVEN A RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEM TO ARTICULATE A CATHOLIC POSITION ON ABORTION, AND THEY CAN DO THAT, THEY CAN PUT ON OP ED PIECE IN THE NEWSPAPER OR WHATEVER.
I THINK AT THAT POINT THEY'RE INFLUENCING THE PUBLIC REALM, THEY'RE DEALING WITH PUBLIC OPINION, AND THEY'RE PERFECTLY ENTITLED TO DO THAT.
BUT WHEN THEY START SAYING THAT A PARTICULAR POLITICIAN, YOU HUD NOT VOTE FOR HIM OR HER BECAUSE OF THEIR STANCE ON WHATEVER THE CHURCH ISSUE MIGHT BE, THEN I THINK THEY'RE CROSSING THE LINE.
SO THAT IN A SENSE THIS AMOUNTS TO A NEGATIVE STATEMENT TOWARD THE POLITICAL CAREER OF REPRESENTATIVE KENNEDY.
AT THAT STATE, HOW HAVE THEY CROSSED THE LINE.
>> IF I MAY, IT'S NOT JUST ANY ISSUE, IT'S THE ISSUE OF ABORTION.
AND LET'S FACE IT, WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON HERE IS A POLITICIAN STAND ON ONE PARTICULAR ISSUE.
IT'S NOT ABOUT CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE WAR IN IRAQ OR STEM CELLS.
IT'S NOT ABOUT ANY OF A NUMBER OF ISSUES --
>> SO THIS IS THE LITMUS TEST?
>> I THINK IT IS THE LIT MUST TEST AND THAT WHAT CAUSES A LOT OF UNEASE.
IT'S AT IF, SUPPOSE YOU WERE AS FAITHFUL A CATHOLIC AS ONE COULD IMAGINE, YOU HONOR ALL THE SACRAMENTS, ATTENDED MASS, WENT TO CONFESSION, LOVED YOUR WIFE AND ALL OF THESE THINGS, BUT YOU HAPPENED TO BE A CONGRESSMAN WHO ROTED FOR AN AMENDMENT ON A BILL TO SINGLE THAT ONE THING OUT AND TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO IGNORE EVERYTHING YOU DO AS A FAITHFUL CATHOLIC AND JUST CONCENTRATES ON THAT ONE THING, THAT STRIKES A LOT OF PEOPLE AS PROBLEMATIC.
THE CHURCH HAS EVERY RIGHT TO DO THAT IF IT WANTS.
>> WHERE IS THE CLOUD COMING FROM FROM THE CHURCH?
THAT'S WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
A LOT OF PEOPLE IN MY GENERATION WHO HAVE WALKED AWAY FROM THE CHURCH ON OTHER ISSUES AND THEN TO COME DOWN HARD LINE ON THIS ISSUE, IS IT GOING TO HAVE SOME SORT OF CLOUT?
>> I THINK IT WILL HAVE SOME.
NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT IT MIGHT HAVE HAD SOME YEARS AGO.
BUT RHODE ISLAND IS THE MOST CATHOLIC STATE IN THE UNION, AND PRESIDENT OBAMA CARRIED IT BY 63% OF THE VOTE.
AND BISHOP TOBIN, AS I RECALL, WAS NOT ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT HIS CANDIDACY EITHER.
SO THERE'S A LIMITED POWER THERE FOR SURE AND CERTAINLY HAS DIMINISHED OVER THE LAST 10, 12 YEARS IN LIGHT OF THE SEX ABUSE SCANDAL.
BUT IT'S STILL A SYMBOLIC POWER, I MEAN, MY IMPRESSION IS THAT THEY DID HAVE A REAL INFLUENCE ON WHAT WAS PASSED IN CONGRESS.
REGARDING THE HEALTH BILL.
THAT WHO EVER IT WAS THAT CALLED, YOU KNOW, NANCY PELOSI AND MADE A FAIRLY STRONG ARGUMENT.
SO THE BISHOPS OF THIS COUNTRY, THE CATHOLIC BISHOPS STILL EXERT SIGNIFICANT INFLUENCE, I BELIEVE.
>> YOU SAID THE KENNEDY FAMILY'S INFLUENCE IS SOMEWHAT DIMINISHED.
BUT CAN WE EVER IMAGINE WHERE THIS WOULD HAPPEN HERE WITH CARDINAL O'MALLEY, GIVING THE KENNEDYS' CLOUT IN MASSACHUSETTS?
>> WHEN TED KENNEDY WAS ALIVE, BUT NOW THE KENNEDY CLOUT IS PRETTY MUCH GONE.
AS WE'VE SEEN IN RECENT WEEKS.
I THINK GETTING BACK TO WHAT TOM WAS SAYING, NATIONALLY WHAT I SEE HAPPENING OVER THE LAST 8 YEARS OR SO OR LAST DECADE IS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE BISHOPS IN PARTICULAR ARE POSITIONING THEMSELVES IN ALLEGIANCE WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ON THESE ISSUES OF CULTURE AND CONSCIENCE.
AND I THINK THEY FEEL THEY WERE LARGELY RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING GEORGE W. BUSH REELECTED IN 2004 WITH THE CATHOLIC VOTE.
>> THERE THERE BE CONSISTENCY HERE WHEN YOU LOOK AT MARTHA COAKLEY AND MIKE CAPUANO SAID ON OUR SHOW LAST NIGHT.
SHOULDN'T CARDINAL O'MALLEY COME OUT AND ORDER THE SAME FOR THEM?
>> IT'S FUNNY.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE THE IMPRESSION THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS A VERY HIRE ARC I CAL ENTITY, BUT I DON'T THINK WE'LL SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE QUESTION OF DOES THIS DEMONSTRATE THE CHURCH'S INFLUENCE.
TO ME IT SHOWS THE CHURCH IN SERIOUS DECLINE.
NOT ONLY IS IT IN DECLINE WHEN IT'S SAYING TO PEOPLE WE DON'T WANT YOU, BUT LOOK HOW MANY CATHOLIC POLITICIANS ARE IGNORING WHAT THE CHURCH SAYS.
YOU HAVE A SIMILAR THING IN OTHER RELIGIONS, THERE'S A TENDENCY NOW TO SAY THAT ANYBODY WHO'S JEWISH NO MATTER HOW FAITHFUL THEY ARE, IF THEY'RE CRITICAL OF ISRAEL, THEY'RE A SELF HATING JEW, SO LET'S RUN THEM OUT.
BUT TO ME WHAT'S REALLY STRIKING IS HOW MANY POLITICIANS ARE STANDING UP AS PATRICK KENNEDY IS AND SAYING YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO.
THIS IS A SERIOUS CHANGE FROM THE POWER OF THE, THAT THE CHURCH HAD MANY YEARS AGO IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.
>> THIS IS GOING TO SOUND LIKE A SIMPLISTIC QUESTION.
BUT DOES THIS MEAN THEY'RE NOT CATHOLIC IF THEY'RE NOT FULLY FOLLOWING THE DROK TRIN AND TEACHINGS?
>> NOT AT ALL, BECAUSE THERE'S A WHOLE TRADITION.
ST. AUGUST CITIZEN AND AQUINAS, THEY WERE ADAMANT THAT A LEGISLATOR COULD FAVOR A LAW THAT THEY FOUND IMMORAL, BUT THEY COULD MAKE SOMETHING LEGAL.
AND THEY BOTH GAVE THE EXAMPLE OF PROSTITUTION, THAT A LEGISLATOR COULD LEGALIZE THE PROSTITUTION FOR THE SAKE OF THE GREATER GOOD, EVEN THOUGH IT'S MORE LITTLE -- MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE AND WRONG.
IT'S POSSIBLE THAT YOU COULD IMAGINE THAT A CATHOLIC LEGISLATOR VOTING FOR THAT.
SO IT'S MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN SIMPLY SAYING LET'S EQUATE OUR MORALITY TO THE LEGALITYS OF THE COMMUNITY AND COUNTRY.
IF 70% OF AMERICANS ARE STILL IN FAVOR OF SOME KIND OF ABORTION IN THIS COUNTRY, THEN A MINORITY GROUP CANNOT TAKE AND MAKE THAT THE LAW OF THE LAND.
SO I WOULD HOPE THAT BISHOP TOBIN AND REPRESENTATIVE KENNEDY WOULD PULL BACK FROM THE INTENSITY OF THIS EXCHANGE AND IMAGINE TOGETHER TO FIND A COMMON GROUND ON HOW TO REDUCE ABORTION.
THE DUTCH HAVE DONE IT.
THEY HAVE ONE-THIRD OF OUR ABORTION RATE, THE GERMANS HAVE ONE THIRD OF OUR ABORTION RATE, THE SWEDES ONLY HALF OF OUR ABORTION RATE.
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BAN IT ENTIRELY, SO THEREFORE HELP TO REDUCE IT.
IT WOULD BE A MUCH MORE POSITIVE TYPE OF STRATEGY.
>> COUNTRYS THAT HAVE LOWER ABORTION RATES HAVE VERY PUBLICLY AVAILABLE BIRTH CONTROL.
SO IF YOU WANT TO REDUCE THE ABORTION RATE, YOU'RE GOING TO RUN INTO ANOTHER CATHOLIC SOCIAL TEACHING AND BE IN ANOTHER RILEATION OF A PRECEPT.
>> ON THE POINT YOU MADE ABOUT CATHOLIC ALIGNING THEMSELVES WITH THE CONSERVATIVE RIGHT, WHEN JFK WAS INAUGURATED HE MADE THE SEPARATION BETWEEN MORALITY AND LEGALITY CLEAR.
HOW MUCH TRACTION DO THEY HAVE NOW AND WHY AREN'T THOSE BELIEFS SORT OF RESONATING STILL DECADES LATER?
>> BECAUSE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS ALIGNING THEMSELVES WITH EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS AND GAINING POLITICAL POWER, AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SEES THIS AND SAYS IT MIGHT BE IN OUR INTEREST TO MAKE A STRATEGIC ALLIANCE WITH THESE FOLK. AND THE OTHER THING I SHOULD MENTION HERE IS THAT I THINK BISHOP TOBIN, HE SHOULD TAKE A LESSON FROM CARDINAL CURBING.
CARDINAL CURBING ALWAYS SAID I HAVE POLITICAL POWER BECAUSE I DON'T CHOOSE TO USE IT.
AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE MORAL HE COULD TAKE AWAY.
>> I SHOULD POINT OUT THAT WE DID REACH OUT TO THE ARCHDIOCESE HERE AND IN RHODE ISLAND, THEY DID NOT CHOOSE TO APPEAR.