May 4, 2010: Paying for prison

BRISTOL COUNTY SHERIFF TOM
HODGSON THINKS INMATES
SHOULD PAY A FEE TO STAY
IN PRISONERS.
HEÁ[Û¶ INSTITUTED A FEE OF $5
A DAY UNTIL THE STATE
SUPERIOR COURT STRUCK IT
DOWN.
NOW THE STATE HOUSE
LEGISLATION -- THE STATE
HOUSE VOTED LAST WEEK TO
REINSTATE THE FEES.
THAT WAS THE HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES, I SHOULD
SAY.
JOINING ME IS SHERIFF TOM
HODGSON AND JIM PINGEON,
THE LITIGATION DIRECTOR OF
THE MASSACHUSETTS
CORRECTIONAL LEGAL
SERVICES.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
IT IS NOT REALLY A BUDGET
ISSUE BECAUSE WHEN YOU
INSTITUTED THIS IN 2002,
THE STATE WAS IN SLIGHTLY
BETTER POSITION.
IT IS NOT REALLY PAYING
BACK THE STATE, BUT MAKING
THEM RESPONSIBLE.
>> IT IS MAKING THEMe@6RESPONSIBLE, BUT GIVING
THEok TAXPAYERS BACK.
WE RAISED $750,000 IN TWO
YEARS.
>> Rooney: MOST PEOPLE
ARE SCRATCHING THEIR HEADS
AND SAYING, WAIT A SECOND,
A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE ARE
INDIGENT, AND THEY DON'T
HAVE A JOB IF THEY'RE IN
PRISON.
THE BURDEN IS GOING TO
FALL ON THE FAMILIES?
>> THAT'S NOT TRUE.
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS,
WE TELL THE FAMILIES,
DON'T SEND MONEY IN.
IT'S NOT YOUR
RESPONSIBILITY.
KEEP YOUR MONEY FOR YOUR
CHILDREN OR WHOEVER IT IS
YOUR SUPPORTING, AND DON'T
SEND IT IN TO THE PERSON
HAD MADE THE BAD CHOICE
NOT TO STAY WITH THE
FAMILY.
THERE IS A SORT OF
MISNOMER THAT INMATES
DON'T HAVE MONEY AND SOME
COME IN WITH THOUSANDS OF
DOLLARS AND SOME LEAVE IN¶Á
LIMOUSINES WHEN THEY
LEAVE.
>> Rooney: A LOT OF
PRISONERS GET PAID TO WORK
IN PRISON.
THEY PROBABLY COULDN'T
WORK $5 A DAY, BUT IT IS
ALSO STATE MONEY, SO WHY
NOT?
>> THERE IS NOTHING WRONG
WITH A LAW THAT SAYS IF A
PRISONER HAS A JOB, WE CAN
TAKE SOME OF THE MONEY WE
GIVE THEM TO PAY FOR ROOM
AND BOARD.
THERE IS A STRATEGIST ON
ON -- STATUTE ON THE BOOKS
THAT PERMITS THAT.
WHAT THEY IMPLEMENTED IN
BRISTOL COUNTY WAS A
POLICY THAT SAYS YOU PAY
AND YOU DO NOT GET MONEY
FROM US.
WE DO NOT PAY PRISONERS
FOR JOBS.
HE IS VERY MUCH OPPOSED TO
IT.
AND HE IS OPPOSED TO
PRISON RELEASE, WHERE
PRISONERS GO OUT INTO THE
COMMUNITY, HAVE A JOB, AND
PREPARE FOR LIFE BACK IN
THE COMMUNITY, AND GIVE
THE MONEY THEY EARN BACK
TO THE STATE TO HELP PAY
FOR THEIR INCARCERATION.
>> Rooney: IF THE
LEGISLATURE PASSES THIS --
IT IS ONE THING FOR THE
SHERIFFS TO HAVE THIS, BUT
OTHER PRISONERS CAN HAVE
THIS POLICY, WHERE PEOPLE
PAY AND GET PAID.
>> UNDER MEDICAL CO-PAYS,
IT IS PERMISSIBLE FOR THE
STATE DEPARTMENT OF
CORRECTIONS TO CHARGE A
MEDICAL CO-PAY TO
PRISONERS.
THAT CO-PAY CAN ONLY COME
FROM MONEY EARNED BY THE
PRISONER AT A PRISON JOB.
CONTRARY TO WHAT THE
SHERIFF HAD SAID ABOUT
WHERE DOES THIS MONEY COME
FROM IN TERMS OF THE
PROPOSAL THAT HE IS
ADVOCATING, DESPITE WHAT
HE SAYS, IT WILL COME FROM
THE FAMILY BECAUSE THERE
IS¶Á NO OTHER SOURCE, UNLESS
YOU TAKE IT FROM PEOPLE
WHO ARE --
>> Rooney: YOU'RE NOT
SYMPATHETIC ABOUT THAT?
>> I'M NOT.
BECAUSE YOU KNOW WHY?
IT'S NOT THE FAMILY'S
RESPONSIBILITY TO PAY THE
BILL.
FURTHERMORE, THE FAMILIES
THAT THEY'RE TALKING
ABOUT, AND SAYING THESE
PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH
MONEY, AND THEY'RE
DESTITUTE FAMILIES.
IF THEY'RE DESTITUTE,
WHERE ARE THEY GETTING THE
MONEY TO BEGIN WITH.
AND THE SUGGESTION WE PAY
THE MOTHER WHILE THEY'RE
IN PRISON AND THEY WERE --
WOULD HAVE TO PAY BACK.
WE'RE PAYING THEM TO DO
MAINTENANCE OR WORK IN THE
KITCHENS -- WITH
TAXPAYERS' MONEY WE'RE
PAYING THEM AND THEN WE'RE
ASKING THEM TO GIVE IT
BACK TO THE TAXPAYER -- IT
MAKES NO SENSE.
LET ME MAKE¶Á THIS ONE
POINT.
IN BRISTOL COUNTY IT WORKS
FINE.
THEY CAN EARN UP TO
SEVEN-AND-A-HALF DAYS GOOD
TIME OFF OF THEIR
SENTENCE.
BUT IF THEY HAVE MONEY TO
BUY CANDY AND COOKERS --
COOKIES AND HIGHER GRADE
SNEAKERS, WHY SHOULD THE
TAXPAYER, WHO HAS BEEN
VICTIMIZED, HAVE TO PAY
FOR THE PERSON, AND THEY
KEEP BUYING THE EXTRAS AND
THEY DON'T PAY FOR THE
BASICS.
>> Rooney: AND THE OTHER
THING HAS BEEN -- THE
POLICY HAS BEEN IF AN
INMATE STAYS OUT OF PRISON
FOR TWO YEARS, ARE THEY
GIVEN THE MONEY BACK?
>> NO.
IF YOU'RE INDIGENT AND YOU
HAVE NO MONEY, WE DEBIT
YOUR COUNTY.
WE GIVE YOU A BILL ON THE
WAY OUT THE DOOR.
IF YOU DON'T COME BACK
WITHIN TWO YEARS, WE WRITE
OFF THE BILL.
IF YOU COME BACK, WE TAKE
WHAT YOU HAVE AND APPLY IT
TO THEM.¶Á
>> Rooney: IS IT
DISCRIMINATION AGAINST
THOSE WHO DON'T HAVE
MONEY?
>> IT IS OFTEN
DISCRIMINATION.
FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN THE
SHERIFF WAS IMPLEMENTING
THESE FEES, HE WAS
CHARGING PEOPLE WHO WERE
AWAITING TRIAL, WHO HASN'T
BEEN CONVICTED OF
ANYTHING.
SO THEY WOULD RUN UP A
BILL.
IF THEY WANTED TO PAY
BAIL, THEY COULDN'T PAY
THEIR BAIL BECAUSE THEY
OWED THE SHERIFF MONEY
BEFORE THEY CAN EVEN GET
OUT OF PRISON.
THAT WAS VERY
DISCRIMINATORY.
THERE IS A LOT OF PROBLEM
WITH THESE KINDS OF FEES.
YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT
THE BIG PICTURE.
WHAT IS A PRISON FOR?
WHAT IS A JAIL FOR?
HOW CAN WE RUN THE PRISON
SYSTEM OR A JAIL SYSTEM IN
A WAY THAT IS MOST LIKELY
TO REDUCE¶Á CRIME OVER?
>> Rooney: WHAT ABOUT
THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS
GIVING SOMEBODY
RESPONSIBILITY?
MOST OF US DON'T LIVE SOME
PLACE FOR FREE.
SO IT IS JUST PEOPLE
SHOWING HOW TO BE
RESPONSIBLE WITH MONEY.
YOU HAVE TO COME UP WITH
THE $5 A DAY.
>> THAT SOUNDS REASONABLE,
EXCEPT WHEN THE MONEY IS
NOT YOUR MONEY, BUT COMING
FROM YOUR MOTHER OR YOUR
GIRLFRIEND OR YOUR SISTER.
IT'S NOT REALLY TEACHING
YOU RESPONSIBILITY TO HAVE
YOUR FAMILY TAKE CARE OF
YOU WHEN YOU'RE A GROWN
MAN.
>> BUT ON THE SAME SIDE OF
THAT, YOU HAVE TO ARGUE IT
IS NOT FAIR FOR THE
TAXPAYER BECAUSE THEY HAVE
TO REACH IN THEIR POCKET
AND PAY THEM A SALARY TO
DO WORK INSIDE THE PRISON
SO THEY CAN KEEP THE
MONEY, AND HALF OF IT IN
THE STATE SYSTEM -- WE'RE
TALKING $3 MILLION A YEAR
HERE.
>> Rooney: HOW DID THE¶Á
INMATES REACT TO THIS.
YOU HAD THIS POLICY IN
PLACE FOR TWO YEARS?
>> SURE.
>> Rooney: HOW DID THEY
REACT TO IT?
>> THEY UNDERSTOOD IT WAS
AN ACCOUNTABILITY PROGRAM.
DID THEY LIKE IT?
NO.
BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY
PROBLEMS.
IT WAS EXPLAINED TO THEM
WHY WE DID IT.
AND THEY UNDERSTOOD, THEY
HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE.
AND FRANKLY, MOST OF THESE
PEOPLE THAT COME IN, MANY
OF THEM HAVE NOT HAD
ANYBODY TELL THEM THEY'RE
ACCOUNTABLE FOR THINGS,
AND NO MEANS NO, AND
NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO
PAY YOUR BILL.
WHEN THEY HEAR THAT, A LOT
OF THEM APPRECIATE IT.
BELIEVE IT OR NOT.
>> Rooney: CAN THEY NOT
GET OUT UNTIL THEY PAY THE
BILL?
>> NO, THEY CAN GET OUT.
IF YOUR INDIGENT, YOU GET
THE BILL WHEN YOU LEAVE.
IF YOU DON'T COME¶Á BACK
WITHIN TWO YEARS, WE WRITE
IT OFF.
>> Rooney: HOW MANY
PEOPLE HAVE HAD IT WRITTEN
OFF?
>> WE'VE HAD A LOT OF
PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD IT
WRITTEN OFF.
WE ACTUALLY HAD ONE GIRL,
WHEN WE FIRST STARTED THE
PROGRAM IN THE FIRST
MONTH, WHO OWED $20.
SHE PROBABLY IS NEVER
GOING TO COME BACK, NEVER
HAS, BUT SHE INSISTED ON
PAYING THAT.
SHE WROTE US A CHECK AND
IT DOESN'T BOUNCE.
SHE WANTED ME TO CLOSE OUT
HER SENTENCE.
>> CAN I COMMENT ON HOW IT
AFFECTS THE INSTITUTIONAL
ATMOSPHERE?
THERE WAS A LOT OF
STRONG-ARMING, A LOT OF
PRISONERS POOLING THEIR
MONEY SO THAT ONE PRISONER
WOULD GET ALL OF THE MONEY
AND THEN DISTRIBUTE THE
CANTEEN TO OTHER
PRISONERS.
PRISONERS BEING TOLD IF
YOU DON'T¶Á HAVE YOUR MOTHER
PUT MONEY IN YOUR ACCOUNT,
I'M GOING TO HURT YOU.
>> THAT HAPPENS EVERY DAY
IN EVERY FACILITY ACROSS
THE COUNTRY.
>> Rooney: THE SENATE
STILL HAS TO VOTE ON THIS.
JAMES AND SHERIFF TOM
HODGSON, THANKS VERY MUCH.
THAT IS IT FOR US.
I'LL SEE YOU TOMORROW
NIGHT AT 7:00.
I'M EMILY ROONEY.
GOOD NIGHT.