May 27, 2010: Re-thinking "don't ask, don't tell"

>> IN 1993 IT SEEMED TO BE

THE BEST POLICY FOR ALL

PARTIES INVOLVED.

WHEN IT CAME TO GAYS AND

LESBIANS IN THE MILITARY THE

CLINTON ADMINISTRATION

CONCEDED THAT A DON'T ASK

DON'T TELL POLICY WOULD WORK

BEST.

SO LONG AS THESE MEN AN

WOMEN KEPT THEIR SEXUAL

ORIENTATION A SECRET, THEY

COULD STAY IN.

NOW CONGRESS IS ON THE VERGE

OF VOTING TO REPEAL THE

PRACTICE.

HERE TO TALK MORE ABOUT THE

ISSUE ARE TRAVIS HENGEN WHO

SPENT NEARLY 12 YEARS IN THE

ARMY BEFORE BEING DISCHARGED

FOR COMING OUT.

RETIRED BRIGADIER-GENERAL

KEVIN RYAN NOW WITH

HARVARD'S KENNEDY COOL.

WELCOME TO BOTH YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I JUST WANT TO START AND

GET A SENSE OF YOUR OWN

PERSONAL HISTORY WITH THIS.

YOU WERE IN THE ARMY FOR 12,

ALMOST 12 YEARS.

WHEN YOU DECIDED TO COME OUT,

KNOWING WHAT THE POLICY WAS.

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

>> WHY DID YOU FEEL TO COME

OUT TO YOUR SUPERIORS?

>> THERE WERE MANY REASONS.

PRIMARILY THE BIGGEST REASON

WAS, IT WAS A QUESTIONING OF

MY UNTEG RIT.

YOU KNOW, ANYBODY WHO SERVES

IN THE MILITARY KNOWS THAT

THERE ARE CERTAIN VALUES

THAT THEY MUST FOLLOW AND

INTEGRITY IS ONE OF THEM.

AND AFTER A WHILE I FELT

THAT THERE WAS THIS POLICY

LOOMING OVER MY HEAD THAT AT

ANY TIME SOMETHING COULD

HAPPEN.

IT WAS VERY DISTRACTING.

AND ALSO --

>> AND ANYTHING TOCO HAPPEN

MEANING --

>> THAT, A WITCH-HUNT,

SOMEBODY MAY QUESTION MY

SEXUALITY.

AND THEN THEY MAY START AN

INVESTIGATION SO THAT THAT

WAS VERY DISTRACTING.

AND ALSO, I FELT THAT I WAS

ALMOST BEING FORCED IT TO

LIE TO COVER THIS UP.

>> IT WASN'T ALMOST, YOU

WERE.

>> YES, WELL, EXACTLY.

BUT YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T SO

OVERTLY LYING.

I FELT THAT I HAD TO HAVE

THIS SECRET THAT WAS JUST,

YOU KNOW, THAT WAS JUST

REALLY TOUGH TO KEEP.

AND IT WAS VERY DISTRACTING.

I WAS DEPLOYED RIGHT AFTER

SEPTEMBER 11th.

I WAS IN KUWAIT SITTING ON

THE IRAQ BORDER FOR ABOUT

SIX MONTHS.

AND I SAW MYSELF BECOMING

MORE AND MORE DISTRACTED AND

I FELT THAT I REALLY OWED IT

TO MY SOLDIERS, HI EIGHT

PEOPLE THERE WHO WORKED FOR

ME, THAT I REALLY NEEDED TO

BE 100 PERCENT ON MY GAME.

AND I FELT THAT THAT WASN'T

HAPPENING BECAUSE I HAD THIS

DISTRACTION.

>> NOW KEVIN, THIS IS 12 12

YEARS AGO.

HAVE WE VOLUME OF THE, HAS

THE MILITARY EVOLVED IN THIS

LAST 12 QUERS TO BE ABLE TO

ACCEPT THIS?

BECAUSE WE ARE BEING TOLD AT

THIS POINT THAT THE VOTES

ARE THERE IN CONGRESS TO GET

THIS DON'T ASK DON'T TELL

POLICY REPEALED.

DO YOU THINK IT'S THE RIGHT

TIME?

>> YEAH, I DO THINK IT'S THE

RIGHT TIME.

AND I THINK THAT BOTH FROM

THE PERSPECTIVE OF DEFENSE

DEPARTMENT AND ALSO

POLITICALLY, YOU KNOW, THE

POLITICAL CLIMATE IS RIGHT

FOR IT NOW.

AND I THINK ACROSS AMERICA,

I THINK TOO, THE AMERICAN

PEOPLE.

BUT I AM JUST ONE OF THEM

AND I HAVE DONE A POLL.

SO BUT MY SENSING IS THAT

IT'S THE RIGHT TIME

ACROSS-THE-BOARD.

SO YES.

>> I JUST WONDER BECAUSE YOU

SAY ACROSS AMERICA.

WE'VE SEEN SOME SAME-SEX

MARRIAGE PROPOSALS GO DOWN,

MOST NOTABLY IN CALIFORNIA

AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

CALIFORNIA A LOT, A PLACE

THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T

EXPECT.

SO YOU DO WONDER IF THE

SENSIBILITY REALLY HAS

CHANGED ENOUGH THAT THERE

WILL BE ACCEPTANCE FOR THIS

WITHIN THE MILITARY IF JUST

EVEN OUTSIDE OF THE REGULAR

CIVILIAN BASE IT IS NOT A

GIVEN.

>> YOU RAISE A GOOD POINT.

AND THAT IS PROBABLY A

DIFFERENT DISCUSSION BUT THE

MARRIAGES, I THINK, THAT

INVOLVES ANOTHER ASPECT OF

GAY RIGHTS.

AND YOU KNOW, WHAT THE

POPULATION IS THINKING ABOUT

THAT, THAT ISN'T REALLY

INVOLVED HERE WHEN WE ARE

TALKING JUST ABOUT,

INITIALLY ANYWAY, ABOUT

MEMBERSHIP, OPEN MEMBERSHIP

IN THE MILITARY.

AM AND THE MILITARY HAS

EVOLVED.

YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION.

I KNOW THAT THROUGH MY 30

YEARS IN ITS MILITARY.

AND I KNOW THAT 20 YEARS AGO

WE COULDN'T HAVE THIS

CONVERSATION.

I DON'T SAY THAT IT WAS

RIGHT TO BE DIFFERENT 20

YEARS AGO.

I AM JUST SAYING IT IF THE

REALITY, THE MILITARY HAS

CHANGED.

>> TRAVIS, ARE YOU SHAKING

YOUR HEAD.

DO YOU FEEL THE SAME THING?

BECAUSE I KNOW THAT YOU ARE

READY TO GO BACK IN IN IF

THIS IS REVEAL -- REPEALED.

>> RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, I DO FEEL THAT

WITH THE REPEAL, THERE IS

GOING TO BE SOME OUTLIAR

INCIDENTS, I'M SURE.

YOU CAN'T SAY IT IS TO THE

GOING TO HAPPEN.

BUT THE MILITARY OPERATES ON

DISCIPLINE.

WE ARE VERY DISCIPLINED

GROUP.

AND TO THINK THAT YOU KNOW,

BY OPENING THE GATES, IF YOU

WILL, TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO

OPENLY SERVE IS GOING

TO-- IS GOING TO CAUSE A

PROBLEMS, WELL, THERE ARE

SYSTEMS IN PLACE, MECHANISMS

IN PLACE.

WE ARE A VERY DISCIPLINED

GROUP AND I REALLY FEEL

THAT-- THAT THOSE MECHANISMS

WILL TAKE PLACE, WILL HAPPEN

IF SOMETHING SHOULD HAPPEN,

LIKE SOME SORT OF CRIME OR

HATE CRIME OR SOMETHING LIKE

THAT.

>> AND THERE IS A CALL HERE

TO WAIT AT LEAST UNTIL THE

PENTAGON FINISHES ITS REVIEW

WHICH IS UNDERGOING RIGHT

NOW, SHOULD BE FINISHED

AROUND THE BEGINNING OF

DECEMBER WHY THE CALL TO

WAIT FOR THE PENTAGON

REVIEW?

WHAT SIGNAL IS THAT GOING TO

SEND TO WAIT FOR THAT, WAIT

FOR THEIR CONCLUSIONS?

>> WELL, MY OPINION ON THAT

IS THAT THERE ARE PROBABLY

MANY MOTIVATIONS FOR WAITING

FOR THE PENTAGON REVIEW.

SOME PEOPLE LET'S GIVE THEM

THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT,

ARE WAITING BECAUSE THEY

HONESTLY FEEL THAT THE

PENTAGON OUGHT TO HAVE AN

OPPORTUNITY TO LAYOUT SOME

PLANS AND SOME STEPS THAT

THEY WANT TO TAKE SO THAT

THEY CAN USE THEIR NEW

POLICY IN TO PLACE IT WILL

BE-- IT'S TO THE GOING TO BE

EASY JUST BECAUSE IT'S

RIGHT.

IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT.

SO THAT MOTIVATION IS OUT

THERE.

THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO

ARE DELAYING ANYWAY POSSIBLE.

IN MY OPINION IT'S BETTER TO

GO AHEAD AND TAKE THE VOTE

NOW AND DO IT NOW JUST

BECAUSE FOR THE POLITICAL

REASON.

IT'S MORE EXPEDIENT AND YOU

ARE LIKELY TO GET IT DOWN

AND YOU MIGHT HAVE MORE

TROUBLE LATER.

BUT THOSE WHO SAY THEY WANT

TO WAIT FOR THE REVIEW AND

HAVE THE RIGHT REASONS, YOU

KNOW, I CAN'T FAULT THEM FOR

THAT I JUST THINK IT'S

BETTER TO DO IT QUICKLY.

>> ON YOUR POINT THAT THINGS

NEED TO CHANGE, I MEAN TO

IMPLEMENT THIS NEW POLICY OR

I GUESS TO REPEAL THE POLICY,

TO JUST HAVE IT THIS WAY,

ARE THERE INFRASTRUCTURE

CHANGES?

WHAT WILL NEED TO HAPPEN.

WHAT WILL NEED TO CHANGE

SYSTEMICALLY AND PERHAPS

EVEN PHYSICALLY IN ORDER TO

ALLOW THIS TO SORT OF GO

FORTH EASILY AS EASILY AS IT

CAN?

>> IF YOU DON'T MIND I WOULD

LIKE TO STEP BACK FOR A

SECOND AND ADDRESS SOMETHING

TO THAT AS WELL.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A LITTLE

BIT 6 MISINTERPRETATION OF

WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THAT

MILITARY WORKING GROUP IS.

AND I WAS AT THE PENTAGON

TWO WEEKS AGO AND I MET WITH

THEM.

AND THEY ARE VERY CLEAR ON

THEIR MISSION WHICH IS HOW

TO BEST REVEAL OR IMPLEMENT

THE REPEAL OF DON'T ASK

DON'T TELL.

NOT WHETHER IT SHOULD.

THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO

BELIEVE THAT THE PURPOSE OF

THAT GROUP IS TO DECIDE

WHETHER THEY SHOULD REPEAL

DON'T ASK DON'T TELL.

NOW AS FAR AS INFRASTRUCTURE

AND THINGS THAT SHOULD

HAPPEN.

>> WHICH IS PROBABLY WHAT

YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT,

PART OF WHAT THE PENTAGON IS

LOOKING AT.

>> EXACTLY.

AND THEY WANT TO KNOW WELL

WHAT POLICIES NEED TO BE

CHANGED.

WHAT KIND OF PROGRAMS NEED

TO BE IMPLEMENTED TO ALLOW

FOR A SMOOTHER I GUESS

TRANSITION TO ALLOW GAYS AND

TO OPENLY SERVICE.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE, YOU

HEAR THE ARGUMENT, WELL, IF

I AM A MAN IN THE SHOWER I

DON'T WANT TO BE NEXT TO A

GAY MAN IN THE SHORE WE ARE.

>> TO BE QUITE HONEST, THEY

ARE THERE NOW.

THEY ARE-- IT IS ESTIMATED

65,000 TROOPS WHO ARE GAY

AND LESBIAN WHO ARE SERVING

RIGHT NOW NEXT TO THOSE

PEOPLE, THEY ARE LIVING IN

THE SAME VILLAGE, SAME

BARRACKS, SHOWERING IN THE

SAME SHOWERS.

THEY ARE THERE.

AND MOST LIKELY THE PEOPLE,

MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE A GAY

OR LESBIAN ROOMMATE PROBABLY

ALREADY KNOW THAT THEIR

ROOMMATE IS GAY OR LESBIAN.

SO I REALLY THINK THAT I

CAN'T SAY IT IS GOING TO BE

A PERFECT TRANSITION.

BUT I THINK OVER TIME IT

GOING TO REALLY BE A

NONISSUE.

>> TRAVIS MENTIONED

DISCIPLINE THIS GOING TO

COME FROM THE TOP DOWN BUT

IF RIGHT NOW THERE IS

RELUCTANCE AMONG THE LEADERS

OF THE FOUR BRANCHES AND

EVEN SENATOR JOHN McCAIN IS

NOT ON BOARD WITH THIS AND

HE'S PROBABLY OUR MOST

VISIBLE WAR VETERAN

POLITICIAN OUT THERE, HOW IS

THAT GOING TO TRANSLATE?

WHAT KIND OF PSYCHOLOGY IS

GOING TO FOLLOW THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK THE

DISCIPLINE THING IS THE KEY

HERE.

AND LET ME ANSWER THAT IN A

SECOND.

BUT WHAT TRAVIS IS SAYING IS

CORRECT.

HOMOSEXUAL CONDUCT BY ITSELF

IS NOT THE THREAT TO UNIT

COHESION OR MORALE THAT WAS

WRITTEN INTO THE LAW IN '93.

IT IS CONDUCT IN CERTAIN

CIRCUMSTANCES.

JUST LIKE WE HAVE

FRATERNIZATION AND SEXUAL

CONDUCT BETWEEN MALE AND

FEMALE IN THE ARMY, IN

CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES IT IS

FORBIDDEN BECAUSE OF EFFECT

ON UNIT COHESION AND MORAL.

HOMOSEXUAL CONDUCT WOULD BE

COVERED IN THE SAME WAY.

HOMOSEXUAL CONDUCT THAT GOES

ON IN THE CONFINES OF A

PRIVATE HOME OR SOMEPLACE

ELSE, I MEAN THAT, UNDER

THIS NEW LAW, I'M SURE THAT

WILL BE PART OF WHAT IS

ALLOWED.

AND VERY NORMAL FOR PEOPLE

TO ACCEPT THAT.

IN TERMS OF THE CHIEFS, I

WOULDN'T SAY THEY ARE

RELUCTANT.

I WOULD SAY THEY ARE

CAUTIOUS IT I DON'T KNOW

THEIR PERSONAL FEELINGS BUT

CLEARLY THEY ARE CAUTIOUS.

EVEN THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN

THE MOST OUTSPOKEN GENERAL

CONWAY, COME DANT OF THE

MARINES SAID IF WE ARE GOING

DO THIS, LET'S GET IT DONE

NOW.

LET'S NOT DOWDEL, LET'S MOVE

FORWARD QUICKLY AND GET THIS

DONE.

>> AS WAS THE CASE IN OUR

LAST SEGMENT THIS ALSO WILL

GO FOR A VOTE AND BE

CONSIDERED THIS WEEK SO WE

WILL BE FOLLOWING.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING

US.

>> AND COMING UP NEXT,

COMEDY ON CENTRE STAGE.