June 28, 2010: Nicholas Carr's The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains

IN 2008, NICHOLAS CARR CAUSED

QUITE A STIR WHEN HE WROTE AN

ARTICLE FOR "THE ATLANTIC"

TITLED IS GOOGLE MAKING US

STUPID?

THE PIECE SUGGESTED THAT

FRENETIC PACE OF INFORMATION ON

THE WEB WAS DRAINING OUR

CONCENTRATION.

NOW HE HAS EXPANDED THAT

ARGUMENT IN HIS NEW BOOK "THE

SHALLOWS", WHAT THE INTERNET IS

DOING TO OUR BRAIN.

AND NICHOLAS CARR IS HERE.

WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Emily: REALLY?

>> THAT'S WHAT THE SCIENCE

INDICATES.

>> Emily: PHYSICALLY

TRANSFORMING THE WAY WE THINK?

>> YEAH, THAT EVERYTHING -- I

MEAN, IN ONE SENSE EVERYTHING WE

DO CHANGES OUR BRAIN, BUT WHEN

WE DO SOMETHING REPEATEDLY AND

OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND WITH

GREAT INTENSITY, AS WE TEND TO

CHECK E-MAIL AND DO ALL THE

OTHER THINGS WITH EDO ON -- WE

DO ON LINE, IT CHANGES THE

CIRCUITRY IN OUR BRAINS.

IT REINFORCES WHAT WE SPEND A

LOT OF TIME DOING AND THEN WE

BEGIN TO LOSE WHATEVER KIND OF

MENTAL CAPABILITIES THAT WE

DON'T PRACTICE.

>> Emily: IS IT A NATURAL

EVOLUTION THOUGH?

THIS -- YOU ARGUE THAT IT KIND

OF PUTS OFF DEEP SUSTAINED

THINKING LIKE READING A

THOUGHTFUL BOOK, READING A LONG

OP-ED PIECE, SOMETHING LIKE

THAT.

BUT ISN'T IT A NATURAL

EVOLUTION?

>> I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF

FORCES IN SOCIETY PUSHING US TO

WANT TO TAKE IN LOTS OF

INFORMATION VERY QUICKLY AND

JUGGLE LOTS OF MESSAGES AND

TASKS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK WE

LOSE SOMETHING IMPORTANT WHEN WE

DON'T -- WHEN WE AREN'T ABLE TO

BACK AWAY AND BE MORE ATTENTIVE

AND CONTEMPLATIVE AT TIMES.

I THINK THAT'S A WHOLE WAY OF

THINKING THAT LEADS TO MORE --

AND OFTEN MORE CREATIVE AND

OTHER KINDS OF THINKING THAT IS

VERY, VERY VALUABLE THAT WE RISK

LOSING.

>> Emily: WHAT ABOUT THE

RETENTION FACTOR?

WHEN YOU'RE MOVING FROM DATA TO

DATA, SAY YOU'RE LOOKING UP A

QUICK ANSWER, IS SOMEBODY DEAD

OR ALIVE, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO

KNOW THE ANSWER TO SOMETHING,

ARE YOU LESS APT TO RETAIN THAT

THIS --

>> DEFINITELY.

ONE OF THE KEYS TO INTELLECTUAL

DEPTH AND EVEN KNOWLEDGE

BUILDING IS THE ABILITY TO MOVE

INFORMATION FROM OUR SHORT TERM

MEMORY OVER TO OUR LONG TERM

MEMORY.

SHORT TERM MEMORY IS WHERE

THINGS ARE COMING IN AND OUT OF

OUR MIND VERY QUICKLY.

LONG TERM MEMORY IS WHEN WE

BUILD CONCEPTUAL KNOWLEDGE.

IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT TRANSITION

YOU HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION.

IF YOU'RE CONSTANTLY FOCUSSING

ON SOMETHING DIFFERENT, JUGGLING

TASKS, YOU BREAK THE CONNECTION

BETWEEN SHORT TERM MEMORY AND

LONG TERM MEMORY AND YOUR

CONCEPTUAL KNOWLEDGE SUFFERS.

>> Emily: IS THIS GENERATION

DRIVEN OR HAS IT -- IS IT

HAPPENING TO ALL OF US,

ESPECIALLY PEOPLE PRESUMABLY

LIKE YOU AND ME WHO KEEP UP WITH

WHAT'S GOING ON.

I ACTUALLY READ A LOT OF BOOKS

BY THE WAY.

I PROBABLY READ FOUR A WEEK, SO

I DON'T FEEL LIKE I'M LOSING

TOUCH WITH IT.

IS IT MORE THE YOUNGER

GENERATION?

>> I THINK IT'S ALL OF US.

I DON'T SEE AND WRITE ABOUT IT

IN PURELY GENERATIONAL TERMS.

THAT LETS PEOPLE LIKE ME, ADULT,

PARENTS, OFF THE HOOK.

VERY EASY TO CRITICIZE KIDS FOR

THEIR, YOU KNOW, THEIR ATTENTION

TO GADGETS, BUT FORGET THE FACT

THAT A LOT OF US ARE ALSO

CHECKING OUR BLACKBERRY AND OUR

iPHONE AND OTHER THINGS ALL THE

TIME.

EVEN DURING CONVERSATIONS WITH

OUR SPOUSES AND OUR FAMILY

MEMBERS.

SO I THINK THAT THE COGNITIVE

EFFECTS ARE THE SAME FOR

EVERYONE.

>> Emily: YOU INDICATE THAT

TECHNOLOGY NOT NEUTRAL BECAUSE

THE SAME ARGUMENTS YOU'RE

PUTTING FORTH ABOUT THE INTERNET

AND THE TECHNOLOGY AGE WERE SAID

ABOUT NEWSPAPERS, CERTAINLY SAID

ABOUT RADIO AND HAD BEEN SAID

ABOUT TELEVISION SINCE THE DAY

THAT IT DEBUTED IN 1949.

I MEAN, STILL SAYING THAT.

EVEN THOUGH THERE'S A BUNCH OF

BAD STUFF ON TELEVISION.

WHY CAN'T WE MAKE THE SAME

ARGUMENT HERE?

>> IT'S PROBABLY TRUE THAT

TELEVISION SHORTENED OR

ATTENTION SPAN.

BUT NOW THE INTER

ß -- NOW THE INTERNET, WE CARRY

IT WITH US ALL DAY LONG.

IT'S THE FIRST KIND OF

COMMUNICATION TECHNOLOGY THAT IS

ALWAYS WITH US AND ALWAYS ON AND

ALWAYS THROWING INFORMATION AT

US.

I THINK COMPARED TO THE OTHER

ONES YOU TALKED ABOUT WHICH I'M

SURE HAD SOME EFFECT, I THINK

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT IT'S --

IT'S FORCING US DOWN THIS ONE

MODE OF THINKING, THIS SKIMMING,

SCANNING, AND NOT GIVING US ANY

OPPORTUNITY TO THINK MORE

ATTENTIVELY.

>> Emily: I MEAN, THERE'S GOING

TO BE ANOTHER TECHNOLOGY THAT

WILL CHANGE THIS CURRENT ONE.

I MEAN, YOU SEE IT GOING FURTHER

IN THE WRONG DIRECTION?

>> I --

>> Emily: WE'LL HAVE IMPLANTS,

SOMETHING.

>> I DON'T SEE ANY INDICATION

THAT WE'RE GOING TO GO BACKWARDS

TO BEGIN VALUING MORE QUIET

SOLITARY TYPE THINKING.

FROM ALL THE SIGNS YOU CAN SEE

WITH TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT

IS THAT THE EXPECTATION OF BEING

ALWAYS CONNECTED IS BEING BUILT

NOW INTO OUR EMPLOYMENT LIVE,

INTO OUR SOCIAL LIVES.

INTO BACK AWAY FROM THAT MEANS

WE, YOU KNOW, OUR CAREER CAN

TAKE A LIT, WE CAN FEEL

SOCIALLY

ISOLATED.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF

PRESSURE PUSHING US IN THIS

DIRECTION.

>> Emily: I'M CURIOUS WHAT KIND

OF FEEDBACK YOU'VE GOTTEN.

YOU MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN A LOT OF

PUSH BACK.

>> I GOT, GEE, MY E PEERNGS OF

NOT BEING ABLE TO CONCENTRATE,

OKAY, WE LOSE THE DEEP READING,

CONTEMPLATIVE NATURE, BUT WE GET

ALL THE CONNECTIONS AND JUGGLE

ALL THE INFORMATION.

ISN'T THAT ENOUGH?

AND FOR SOME PEOPLE IT IS

ENOUGH.

BUT I DO THINK, YOU KNOW, THE

IDEAL MIND, THE IDEAL

INTELLECTUAL LIFE HAS BOTH.

THE ABILITY TO SKIM AND SCAN AND

JUGGLE.

BUT THE ABILITY ALSO TO BE

CONTEMPLATIVE AT TIMES.

>> Emily: MY GUESS AND MY HOPE

IS, YOU HAVE TO BE THINKING OF

MY OWN BEHAVIOR AS I WAS GOING

THROUGH THE BOOK, I HAD

WIMBLEDON UP.

THE RADIO WIMBLEDON UP ON THE

WEBSITE AND I WAS SKIMMING THE

BOOK, AND HE'S RIGHT.

HOW CAN I KEEP TRACK OF THIS AT

ONCE?

I ENJOYED HAVING THE STIMULATION

GOING AT ONE TIME.

>> THAT'S GREAT.

BUT WHEN THAT'S ALL WE DO, WHICH

SEEMS TO BE WHERE WE'RE HEADED,

THERE'S A COST TO THAT.

>> Emily: AND VACATIONS DON'T

MAKE UP FOR IT, WHEN YOU PUT THE

TELEPHONE DOWN AND PICK UP THE

BOOK?

>> MOST PEOPLE WHEN THEY GO ON

VACATIONS THEY BRING THEIR

iPHONE.

>> Emily: AND GET SAND IN IT.

FASCINATING IDEA HERE.

"THE SHALLOWS", NICHOLAS CARR,

THANK YOU FOR COMING IN.

TOMORROW ON MY RADIO SHOW ON

89.7, MY GUEST WILL BE JOHN

WALSH, THE HEAD OF THE STATE'S

DEMOCRATIC PARTY AT NOON.

FOLLOWED BY CALLIE CROSSLEY.

AND THEN THE MOVE TO LIMIT GUN

BUYERS TO ONE GUN PER MONTH.

>> WE HAVE LOTS OF SUPPORT FROM

GUN OWNERS WHO WANT TO SEE AN

END TO THE SHOOTINGS ON THE

STREETS.

>> Emily: I DON'T KNOW WHO NEEDS

TWO A MONTH, BUT WILL IT PASS?

AND JARED BOWEN SPEAKS WITH

JULIA JONES, THE LOCAL STAR OF

THE NEW "TWILIGHT".

I'M EMILY JONES.

SEE YOU TOMORROW.