Apr. 21, 2010: Asperger's and John Ogdren

>> TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON",

THE CASE OF JOHN ODGREN,

EMOTIONALLY DISTURBED CHILDREN

AND THEIR PLACE IN MAINSTREAM

SCHOOLS.

PLUS LINES ARE LONG AND

COMPLAINTS ARE UP AT THE R. M.

V., THE REGISTRAR IS HERE.

AND THE EX-WIFE OF PONZI

SCHEMER BRAD WEISS WITH TIPS

ON HOW TO MAKE SURE YOU'RE NOT

GETTING RIPPED OFF.

GOOD EVENING.

TEENAGER JOHN ODGREN IS ON

TRIAL FOR ADMITTEDLY MURDERING

15-YEAR-OLD JAMES ALLENSON IN

A HIGH SCHOOL BATHROOM THREE

YEARS AGO.

THE DEFENSE SAYS ODGREN WASN'T

RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS

BECAUSE OF A MENTAL DISORDER.

AND THAT IS THE CRUX OF THE

MATTER.

DID JOHN ODGREN'S ASPERGER'S,

DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY DRIVE

HIM TO THE MURDER OR WAS IT

PREMEDITATED?

IT ALSO RAISE QUESTIONS OVER

WHETHER ODGREN SHOULD HAVE

BEEN IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL AT

ALL.

THIS WEEK HIS FATHER, PAUL

ODGREN, SAYS THEY TRIED

EVERYTHING TO HELP THEIR SON.

TESTIFYING FOR THE DEFENSE,

JOHN ODGREN'S FATHER SAYS THEY

KNEW FROM AN EARLY AGE THAT

THEIR SON WAS A TORMENTED

SOUL.

IN THIRD GRADE, DR. PAUL

ODGREN RECALLS --

>> HE ONE DAY ANNOUNCED TO US,

JUST OUT OF THE BLUE, WHEN I

GROW UP I'M GOING TO KILL

MYSELF.

>> AROUND THAT TIME, ODGREN'S

VIOLENT FANTASIES ALSO TURNED

TO OTHERS.

>> HE STATED THAT SOME FEMALE

STUDENTS AT SCHOOL MADE HIM

FEEL VERY BAD ABOUT HIMSELF.

AND HE HAD HAD THOUGHTS OF

GETTING A GOLDEN GUN AND

SHOOTING ONE OF THEM.

>> JOHN ODGREN WAS DIAGNOSED

WITH A NUMBER OF DISORDERS,

INCLUDING ASPERGER'S, A FORM

OF AUTISM, AS WELL AS

DEPRESSION, ANXIETY AND O. C.

D..

AT LINK CON SUDBURY HIGH

SCHOOL HE ATTENDED A PROGRAM

OFFERING SPECIAL NEEDS

SERVICES, BUT HE WAS PARANOID

AND UNHAPPY.

HIS FATHER SAYS HE TOLD A

PSYCHIATRIST HE MIGHT HURT

SOMEONE.

>> IF I WAS REALLY EXASPERATED,

I COULD EXPLODE AND DO

SOMETHING I'D REGRET, LIKE

STRANGLE THEM OR BEAT THE PULP

OUT OF THEM, IT COULD HAPPEN,

WHO KNOWS.

>> FEW DISTURBED STUDENTS LASH

OUT LIKE ODGREN.

STILL, HIS CASE HIGHLIGHTS A

DILEMMA.

MAINSTREAMING MAY BENEFIT MOST

KIDS WITH SPECIAL NEEDS.

BUT FOR AN UNFORTUNATE

MINORITY, IT MIGHT ONLY MAKE

THEIR PROBLEMS WORSE.

JOINING ME NOW IS DANIA JEKEL

OF THE ASPERGER'S SOAKS OF NEW

ENGLAND, AND DR. SAN GEE TA

DEYA, A PSYCHOLOGIST WHO

SPECIALIZES IN ASPERGER'S.

I KNOW YOU'RE NOT INVOLVED IN

THIS CASE AT ALL, BUT WE'VE

GOT THINKING ABOUT THIS AND

WHETHER IT'S ROUTINE TO HAVE

KIDS WITH THESE KINDS OF

DISORDERS, MAINSTREAMED IN A

PUBLIC SCHOOL.

WOULD THAT BE THE CASE

NORMALLY?

>> I WOULD SAY MOST CHILDREN

WITH ASPERGER'S SYNDROME DO

ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

>> AND ARE, WHAT KIND OF

SPECIAL SERVICES ARE THEY

PROVIDED?

THEY JUST GO TO CLASSES LIKE

EVERYBODY ELSE?

>> NO, MOST CHILDREN WITH

ASPERGER'S NEED SUPPORT AND

SERVICES WHILE THEY'RE IN

SCHOOL.

>> LIKE WHAT?

>> IT DEPENDS, SOMETIMES IT'S

ACADEMIC HELP, SO IT MIGHT BE

LONGER TIME FOR HOMEWORK, IT

MIGHT BE A MORE STRUCTURED

CLASSROOM, IT MIGHT BE A

SCHEDULE ON THEIR DESK SO THEY

KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON, IT MIGHT

BE SOME SOCIAL HELP WITH THE

SOCIAL STUFF.

SOCIAL PRAGMATIC CLASSES AND

SOME PRACTICE IN THE CLASS AND

HOW TO TALK WITH YOUR FRIENDS

OR TALK WITH YOUR CLASSMATES.

THINGS LIKE THAT.

EACH CHILD WITH ASPERGER'S

SYNDROME IS SO DIFFERENT, THAT

THE INDIVIDUAL SUPPORT AND

ACCOMMODATION FOR THAT CHILD

IS VERY, VERY DEPENDENT ON THE

NEEDS OF THAT CHILD.

>> I STARTED READING SOME OF

THE DESCRIPTIONS ONLINE TODAY

AND I KNOW WHAT DANIA SAYS IS

CORRECT, THAT A LOT OF THEME

ARE DIFFERENT, BUT HOW COMMON

IS IT FOR SOMEBODY TO HAVE

VIOLENT FANTASYS THE WAY JOHN

ODGREN APPARENTLY DID?

>> NOT VERY COMMON.

THIS IS AN UNFORTUNATE

INCIDENT THAT HAPPENED.

BUT IT'S REALLY WITHIN THE

ASPERGER'S COMMUNITY, IT'S

REALLY JUST AS UNCOMMON, I

WOULD SAY, AS IT WOULD BE WITH

ANY OTHER MENTAL ILLNESS.

>> SO WHAT WOULD YOU SEE AS

SOME OF THE MORE COMMON

BEHAVIORS?

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS

READING, JUST SEEMED TO

DESCRIBE HIM TO A TEE.

NOT BEING ABLE TO, NO EYE

CONTACT, THIS FIDGETING WITH

THE HANDS, HE'S GOVERNMENT HIS

HANDS WRAPPED EVEN IN THE

COURTROOM, HE WAS DOING THIS

ALL THE TIME.

ARE THERE OTHER THINGS LIKE

THAT THAT ARE JUST COMMON

SYMPTOMS?

>> YES, THERE IS ACTUALLY A

RANGE OF DIFFICULTIES WHICH

BASICALLY WE SEE SOME OF IT IN

THIS CHILD.

BUT THEY CAN TAKE IN SO MANY

DIFFERENT FORMS.

WE CANNOT FEED THE WHOLE RANGE

OF SOCIAL AND EMOTIONAL

DIFFICULTIES THAT ONE CHILD

WITH ASPERGER'S COULD PRESENT

BECAUSE THERE'S SUCH A HIJ LIE

ABILITY.

>> DO THEY SOCIALIZE IN

SCHOOL?

HOW DOES IT WORK?

>> GENERALLY THE PROBLEM FOR

KIDS IN SCHOOL, AND AGAIN IT

DEPENDS, ELEMENTARY IS

DIFFERENT FROM MIDDLE SCHOOL,

MIDDLE SCHOOL IS DIFFERENT

FROM HIGH SCHOOL, BUT THERE

ARE GENERALLY KIDS WHO ARE

VERY ISOLATED BY OTHER

CHILDREN, THEY'RE SHUNNED,

THEY'RE EATING ALONE IN THE

LUNCHROOM.

THEY GENERALLY DON'T HAVE

FRIENDS.

THEY ARE THE TARGETS OF

BULLIES AND TEASING.

ENOUGH SO THAT SOMETIMES THAT

TRAUMA STAYS WITH THEM FOR

YEARS AND YEARS, EVEN THEIR

LIFETIME.

SO THEY ARE GENERALLY NOT

PEOPLE WHO GO AROUND DOING

VIOLENT ACTS, THEY'RE

GENERALLY PEOPLE WHO REALLY

ARE PEOPLE DO ACTS ON THEM,

THEY ARE THE BULLIED ONES.

>> WHICH COULD LEAD THEM TO

ACTING OUT.

WHICH LEADS ME TO THE MAIN

FOCUS OF THIS SEGMENT IS,

SHOULD THEY BE IN MAINSTREAM

ENVIRONMENTS?

I KNOW THAT THERE'S A WHOLE

MOVEMENT THAT OCCURRED OVER

THE LAST SEVERAL DECADES TO

MAKE SURE THESE KINDS OF KIDS

WERE MAINSTREAMED.

BUT MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T BE.

>> THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS TO

IT.

ONE IS ABOUT THE CHILD'S

NEEDS.

AND THE OTHER IS THE

ENVIRONMENT, HOW WELL EDUCATED

THEIR ENVIRONMENT IS TO BE

ABLE TO MEET THEIR NEEDS.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE NEEDS OF THE

OTHER KIDS?

>> WELL, I DON'T SEE LIKE HOW

THEIR NEEDS WOULD NOT BE MET

IF A NEED OF ANOTHER CHILD HAS

TO BE MET IN A SPECIAL WAY.

>> I THINK IT'S VERY GOOD FOR

PEOPLE IN SCHOOL, FOR CHILDREN

AND STUDENTS IN SCHOOLS TO SEE

THAT THERE IS A VARIETY OF

PEOPLE LIVING IN THIS WORLD.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST NOT ALL

ONE PERSON.

THERE'S A WIDE RANGE OF

PEOPLE.

>> I DOUBT THAT THEY EXPLAINED

TO THESE KIDS WHAT WAS WRONG

WITH THIS KID.

HE WAS JUST THERE, HE WAS PART

OF THE MAINSTREAM, WHICH WOULD

MAKE IT NATURAL, I HATE TO SAY

IT, FOR HIM TO BE PICKED ON

BECAUSE THEY JUST THAW HE WAS

WEIRD.

>> HE ACTUALLY WASN'T IN THE

MAINSTREAM AT SUDBURY, HE WAS

IN A SPECIAL PROGRAM OR A

SCHOOL WITHIN A SCHOOL.

AND BECAUSE HE'S A VERY, VERY

COMPLEX CHILD WITH NOT JUST

ASPERGER'S SYNDROME BUT OTHER

ISSUES ALSO.

MOST CHILDREN WITH ASPERGER'S

SYNDROME AGAIN ARE HARMLESS,

THEY ARE NOT VIOLENT.

HERE THE ONES WHO NEED A

LITTLE BIT OF SUPPORT, THEY

NEED A LITTLE HELP.

JOHN ODGREN IS A SPECIAL

SITUATION, VERY VERY COMPLEX

CHILD.

AND IT'S REALLY A SHAME WHAT

HAPPENED WITH HIM, AND THE

WHOLE SITUATION, THE WHOLE

STORY IS JUST VERY TERRIBLE.

BUT PEOPLE DO NOT NEED TO BE

SCARED OF FOLKS WITH

ASPERGER'S SYNDROME.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HURT

OTHER CHILDREN.

THEY'RE JUST NOT LIKE THAT.

>> THIS IS INTERESTING,

BECAUSE ACTUALLY A

PSYCHOLOGIST TESTIFIED, CHILD

PSYCHOLOGIST TESTIFIED TODAY,

SAYING THAT THIS KID IS NOT

CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR

WHAT HE DID.

HE DIDN'T USE THE WORD INSANE

AS FAR AS I KNOW, BUT THEY'RE

GOING FOR AN INSANITY DEFENSE.

BUT YOU WOULDN'T SAY THAT

ABOUT THE NORMAL ASPERGER'S

KID, YOU WOULD SAY THEY ARE

RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO,

CORRECT?

>> DANIA WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> PEOPLE WITH ASPERGER'S

SYNDROME KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG,

ABSOLUTELY, THEY DO KNOW RIGHT

FROM WRONG.

AGAIN THIS IS A COMPLEX CHILD,

YOU CAN'T JUST SAY HE AS

ASPERGER'S SYNDROME.

HE HAS MANY OTHER ISSUES AND

MANY OTHER THINGS.

HE DIDN'T SEEM, YOU KNOW, I

DON'T KNOW HIM, BUT DIDN'T

SEEM LIKE HE WAS LIVING IN A

REALITY.

SO AGAIN I DON'T WANT TO

GENERALIZE FROM ONE CHILD'S

BEHAVIOR TO ALL PEOPLE WITH

ASPERGER'S.

>> I FEEL LIKE I'M COMING OFF

TOUGH, BUT I'M REALLY VERYLE

PA THELT TAKE A LOOK THIS KID.

THIS WHOLE THING SEEMS

MISPLACED.

THE TRIAL, THE WHOLE THING.

CLEARLY THERE'S SOMETHING

REALLY WRONG WITH THIS KID.

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO HIM, CAN

EITHER OF YOU SPECULATE, IN A

PRISON ENVIRONMENT?

>> WELL, HE HAS BEEN IN PRISON

FOR THREE YEARS.

>> I THINK HE WAS IN A

JUVENILE FACILITY.

>> NO, I DON'T THINK SO.

>> HE'S 19 NOW.

>> HE'S 19.

HE IS IN AN ADULT FACILITY.

AND I CAN'T, AGAIN, I THINK

PRISON GENERALLY IS NOT GOOD

FOR FOLKS WITH ASPERGER'S

SYNDROME BECAUSE AS THEY'RE

VULNERABLE IN THE SCHOOLS,

THEY'RE ALSO VULNERABLE IN THE

PRISON SYSTEM.

THEY HAVE TROUBLE SOMETIMES

UNDERSTANDING SOMEBODY'S

INTENT.

THEIR MEANING.

THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE

POLITICS OF THE SITUATION.

THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND

SOMEBODY'S EMOTIONS.

AND IN A JAIL, IF YOU'RE NOT

REALLY, IF YOU DON'T

UNDERSTAND THOSE THINGS, YOU

CAN BE IN REAL TROUBLE.

AGAIN, CLEARLY HE'S MATURED A

LOT, HE'S GROWN INTO A MAN,

YOU KNOW.

>> HE'S GAINED A LOT OF WEIGHT,

HE LOOKS VERY DIFFERENT.

>> I REALLY HOPE HE WILL FIND

THE HELP THAT HE NEEDS

WHEREVER HE IS.

>> OKAY, DANIA JEKEL AND SAN

SANGEETADEY, THANK YOU VERY

MUCH.

WHEN WE CONTINUE, RACHEL

KAPRIELIAN AND THE LONG LINES

AT THE R. M. V.