Transcript
>> HINOJOSA: In the year 2003,
her US Army convoy was attacked
while on its way to Baghdad.
She survived the ambush, but
became the first black female
prisoner of war in US history.
Iraq War veteran Shoshana
Johnson.
I'm Maria Hinojosa.
This is One on One.
Captioned by
Media Access Group at WGBH
access.wgbh.org
Shoshana Johnson, you were taken
prisoner in Iraq in the year
2003.
You are actually the first black
female prisoner of war.
And now you have written a book
about that experience.
It's called I'm Still Standing--
From Captive US Soldier to Free
Citizen, My Journey home.
Welcome to our program.
It's great to have you here.
>> JOHNSON: Thank you.
>> HINOJOSA: You decided to
write this book, but you didn't
have to write this book.
>> JOHNSON: No.
>> HINOJOSA: You could have just
put this chapter away.
What was it that made you say,
"You know what?
I have to tell my story about
being the first black woman
prisoner of war"?
>> JOHNSON: Well, there was so much out
there, floating around,
misconceptions about the
experience and what happened to
me.
I just really wanted to set the
record straight from my point of
view.
Since the book has come out,
I've come to the realization
that no matter what I say,
there's going to be people who
believe what they want to
believe.
But I know that I have put the
truth out there.
>> HINOJOSA: You are basically
raised in an Army family.
You're an immigrant from Panama.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: Your dad joins the
Army, and he goes and he serves
in the First Gulf War.
>> JOHNSON: Yes, he did.
>> HINOJOSA: And at that point
you're a kid, and I remember in
your book you wrote that what it
was like to have your father
away was just horrible.
>> JOHNSON: A lot of worry.
I was my senior year in high
school, and he missed most of
it.
And this was a point where
you're transitioning to be an
adult, and you need that advice,
and I'm worried if my father's
going to come home, you know?
>> HINOJOSA: And this is where I
get stuck, because I'm like, if
you went through that kind of
worry, why would you ever want
to join the Army, knowing that
there could be a time when
you're going to be deployed, and
when your family's going to be
worried about you just the same?
>> JOHNSON: Well, you know, you go
through life and things happen.
And that's one of the things my
parents taught me-- you can't
control every aspect of your
life.
You can just do what you can
every day.
I mean, there are people who go
out the door in the morning
going to their safe, normal job
and die on the way there.
So you just accept the risk of
life and you live it the best
way you can.
The military was a great
opportunity for me to further my
education, and it is something
that I definitely believe in,
serving your country.
You know, freedom isn't free.
As an immigrant to this country,
I understand what it is to live
here and what it is to live
there.
And the things I have open to
me, the opportunities I have
open to me, someone had to do
that for me.
And I want to do it for others.
>> HINOJOSA: But did you... I
mean, at that time when you were
serving on the ground in Iraq,
it seems like in your book you
were basically saying you
weren't sure why you guys were
being sent on the front lines to
Iraq.
So when you say freedom isn't
free, and we're here to, you
know, create that, in what sense
were you as a soldier at that
point protecting me?
Or have you come to kind of
question that?
>> JOHNSON: Well, because it's not just a
particular instance.
It's the whole concept of the
country, the government, and
things like that.
We elect certain people to make
decision for us when it comes to
politics.
And, you know, me standing as a
specialist in the United States
Army saying, "I don't believe in
this particular situation," is
not going to change the whole
government and just erase the
political stuff that happens.
So I knew that I would have to
follow the orders that were
given to me whether I liked them
or not.
And as an American citizen, a
voting American citizen, I can
make my voice be heard at
another time.
>> HINOJOSA: Okay.
You write about the fact that
the Army had kind of sent you
into this war zone without a lot
of preparation.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah, we...
>> HINOJOSA: This is the US
Army, and you guys are being
sent to fight on the front
lines... well, you're a cook at
that point.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: So when you think
about that, this is the US Army,
and they're sending someone--
well, many people-- who weren't
really trained, didn't have the
right equipment...
>> JOHNSON: It's frustrating, very
frustrating.
As a cook, I'm trained in my
job, but first I'm a soldier.
I know how to fire my weapon,
things like that.
I wasn't trained in guerilla
warfare or anything like that.
That wasn't my job.
Of course, now, because of what
happened to us, they are
training every soldier a little
differently.
So what happened to me wasn't in
vain.
But it was sad to know that some
of the equipment we had was
failing us, and they didn't seem
to be able to replace it, get it
done in a quickly manner.
I think this came to light
actually a couple years later
when they had a soldier say to
Donald Rumsfeld, you know, "Why
don't we have great equipment?"
And he said something like, "You
go to war with the army you
have, not the army you wish
for."
Some comment like that, I
remember.
And I think at that point, that
opened up a lot of people's eyes
to what soldiers are dealing
with in the United States Army.
Things have gotten better, but
we aren't there yet.
>> HINOJOSA: Let's go back to
2003.
So you still were kind of like,
"All right, I'm going to Kuwait,
but I'm going to be the backup
force."
Because you're a cook.
>> JOHNSON: Mm-hmm, I'm support.
>> HINOJOSA: You're support.
And then they come in and say,
"We're going on a convoy."
>> JOHNSON: Yeah, "We're going to Iraq."
>> HINOJOSA: And you said, "Yes,
Sir"?
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
At first I was like, "Huh?
What are you talking about?"
And they were like, "We're going
to Iraq."
I said, "Why?"
I questioned it, I'm not going
to lie.
I was asking questions, "Why are
we going?"
>> HINOJOSA: Who did you ask?
>> JOHNSON: I asked my immediate
supervisor, my NCO.
And he was like, "Johnson, I
don't know.
We got the orders, we're going
to Iraq."
>> HINOJOSA: So you can act...
in that sense, you can say to
your commanding officer, "Why,"
and that's okay?
>> JOHNSON: Well, not my commanding
officer.
It was my... you know, it was a
little bit ways down.
And...
>> HINOJOSA: Saying that to a
commanding officer, maybe not so
much.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
And for Captain King, I did ask.
And, you know, of course, not
the same way.
I would be like, "You know, Sir,
what is the mission for us to be
going into Iraq?"
"We're supporting, you know,
Patriot missiles," and this and
that.
And I was like, "Okay, but
aren't the mechanics going with
them?
Why are we, the cooks, the
supply clerks, going into..."
"That's the orders we were
given, this is the mission, this
is what we have to do."
And that's the answer.
And that's not even a really
good answer, but...
>> HINOJOSA: You guys head off
in a convoy.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: Of how many trucks?
>> JOHNSON: Initially we were in a large
convoy of, like, 600 vehicles
long.
>> HINOJOSA: Oh, my gosh.
And you were just driving
though... is it really the way
you describe it in the book?
It's just complete desert?
>> JOHNSON: Desert.
>> HINOJOSA: For hours and hours
and hours.
>> JOHNSON: And, I mean, if you get lost,
you get turned around, you can't
even tell which way is up.
>> HINOJOSA: So how does it
happen that if you're in a
convoy of 600 cars-- trucks,
right?-- that suddenly you guys
get lost?
I mean, first of all you end up
in an urban area.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: And you started
questioning.
You were like, "What are we
doing in this urban area,"
right?
>> JOHNSON: Immediately.
I was like, "This is so wrong."
What happened is vehicles...
it's a lot of sand.
Vehicles get caught, wheels
turning, and it took a while to
pull vehicles out of the sand.
And the convoy keeps going, you
know?
They can't stop for ten or 15 of
us.
And, you know, it keeps
happening.
We're actually, like, two days
behind at this point.
Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: Two days?
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
It's like two days behind.
>> HINOJOSA: So you're just,
like, how many trucks on your
own?
>> JOHNSON: It came down to, I would say,
about 15 trucks, about 33, 34
people.
>> HINOJOSA: I don't know.
I would imagine that if you
said, "Look, there's just 15
trucks, we're kind of isolated,
please wait for us" that they
would say, "We're going to wait
for you."
Because isn't it about, "We
don't leave any soldier behind"?
>> JOHNSON: Exactly.
And that's the big problem we
had.
We were supposed to hit a
checkpoint.
And at the checkpoint, they
reconfirm the information you
have, reconfirm which direction,
which route you're going on.
And when we got to the
checkpoint there was no one
there.
They were gone.
So they went with the
information they had.
>> HINOJOSA: And at that point
in your book, you say that you
basically are saying, "Why are
we doing this?
This is a bad decision."
But can you say that, as a
soldier?
>> JOHNSON: Not really.
I mean, I had the discussion
with a couple of the other
soldiers around the same rank as
myself.
And I was like, "This feels
wrong.
Something's not right.
Why are we..." and then we
passed Marines.
The Army never passes Marines.
I don't under... we passed some
Marines on the road.
And I'm thinking, "Wow.
This is so wrong.
I have a really bad feeling."
But what are you going to do?
>> HINOJOSA: Then all of a
sudden gunfire breaks out.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah, after we enter the
city.
>> HINOJOSA: And you've never...
>> JOHNSON: I mean, we'd fired our
weapon.
I know what gunfire, you know,
going downrange... when gunfire
is coming towards you, that's a
different sound than you firing
at something else.
So it just sounds like rocks
hitting a windshield.
And it was very shocking.
And Hernandez and I were like,
"Oh, my God, they're firing at
us."
>> HINOJOSA: Hernandez was in
the vehicle with you?
>> JOHNSON: He was the driver.
>> HINOJOSA: And at that moment
suddenly things were happening,
and you realize now that trucks
have overturned, that your
soldiers who you were with two
seconds ago who were alive...
>> JOHNSON: Are gone.
>> HINOJOSA: Are gone.
And then you crawl underneath a
truck.
>> HINOJOSA: Yeah.
We got out the vehicle, Sergeant
Riley came up, and a couple of
bullets went by really close.
He was like, "Take cover."
We hit the ground.
We take cover underneath the
vehicle to return fire.
The minute I hit ground to
return fire, I get shot.
And it's amazing, because Riley
ran a good 100 yards, bullets
flying, not a scratch on him.
Not a scratch on him.
I didn't move two feet from my
truck and I got shot.
>> HINOJOSA: And you get shot in
each leg?
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: Once in each leg?
>> JOHNSON: It... from what they
understood it was one bullet hit
both legs.
>> HINOJOSA: So you're under
attack, you're under fire.
You get shot.
And you're... and then your
weapons are jamming, right?
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
We're having problems with the
weapons.
>> HINOJOSA: So you can't even
return fire.
And what are you thinking about
at that moment?
>> JOHNSON: I'm... a lot of prayers.
A lot of prayers.
And I'm thinking, you know,
"They're going to come get us.
They're going to come and get
us."
And then, you know, realization
that, no, we're surrounded.
We can't do anything.
And Sergeant Riley makes the
decision, we have to surrender.
And I'm thinking that's the last
thing I want to do.
But he's thinking he has two
people, myself and Hernandez,
that he is responsible for.
So he makes a decision.
>> HINOJOSA: Which is kind of,
you know... I'm sure in your
mind at that time you're
thinking, "You want to surrender
to this enemy?"
>> JOHNSON: That's right.
But he... you know, and looking
back, I was like, "No, I don't
want to surrender, I don't want
to surrender."
But I was thinking, "What's
going to happen to me?"
He's thinking, "I need to take
care of them."
>> HINOJOSA: Because there
really wasn't an out.
I mean, either you were going to
die, or you surrender.
And if you surrender, you could
die.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: So you end up... at
one point, very soon after, the
Iraqis who take you realize that
you're a woman.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: And they kind of...
>> JOHNSON: Yeah, it was kind of in the
middle of the beating, you know,
my Kevlar comes off, my braids
come out, they realize I'm a
female, and they stop.
>> HINOJOSA: Because at that
point they're just... even
though you're shot in both legs,
and you're bleeding, they come
up to you, and they're just
basically...
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: ...kicking your
butt.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: And you're taking
this all.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
I mean, I don't have a choice.
I... you know, you cover up, you
block your head, and that's
about it.
>> HINOJOSA: And then, what is
the most revealing part?
I mean, some of the things that
you talk about in the book,
about how you were treated by
some of your Iraqi captors, was
really extraordinary.
What was... talk a little bit
about that, what was revealing
to you about these people who
were your enemy, and now you're
their hostage.
>> JOHNSON: It's really seeing the human
side of it.
There's good and bad, you know?
When I first got captured and I
was separated from the men, I
remember, you know, being
groped.
When I voiced a concern about
being groped, I was slapped.
But that was one individual.
There was another time during my
captivity where there was a
gentleman that went out of his
way to be kind to me.
I think we need to stop looking
at this group of people as just
a group and start seeing
individuals.
There is good and bad no matter
where you go, no matter what
religion, no matter what race,
what sex.
And we need to start judging
each individual on their own
personal actions.
And that really... I mean, my
parents always taught me that,
but this was just... really
opened my eyes to the situation.
Because that first instance
where I was groped and slapped,
I could have held a grudge
against all the Iraqi people, or
all Iraqi men.
But I have to remember the
kindness of that one man who,
for all I know, was later
injured for his kindness toward
me, you know?
I really have to think of
individuals, not a group, you
know?
There are so many people that
like to say, "Those people,
those Muslims, those Arabs."
I'm like, "Stop with the 'those
people,'" because that's the
same way that they refer to us,
"Those Americans."
>> HINOJOSA: "Those bad
Americans."
>> JOHNSON: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: So you have bullet
wounds in both of your legs.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: Ripped tendons,
broken bones, and you are being
forced to walk.
How did you do that, Shoshana?
I know that you're kind of
like... but really, how do you
in that moment deal with the
fact that you are overwhelmed
with pain?
>> JOHNSON: I wanted to live.
I wanted to live.
I thought that they would reach
a point where they would get
tired of carrying me.
You know, and I couldn't be a
burden.
So when they started to push me
to walk, I walked, because I
wanted to live.
I didn't want them to get tired,
you know, and just put a bullet
in my head.
So it becomes just instinct.
>> HINOJOSA: You were held for
21 days.
>> JOHNSON: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: And you kept on
thinking that they were going to
come, that they were going to
come, but it took 21 days.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: In that time, did
you realize what was happening?
You had no clue that the rest of
the world was kind of watching.
>> JOHNSON: No, I didn't.
Didn't have a clue.
Very isolated.
All I was wondering about was
going home to my family.
You know, I wondered what
happened to the rest of the
company and my fellow POWs, you
know?
>> HINOJOSA: What did you do to
remain hopeful?
I mean, how did you...
>> HINOJOSA: It was hard.
I went back and forth a lot,
talking about, "This is it,
today's the day I'm going to
die."
And then I would think, you
know, "God brought me through
the ambush for a reason.
There's got to be a reason I'm
still here."
And I would think of my
daughter.
I would think of, "What am I
going to do when I get home?"
You know, you really go through
everything.
"I want to see this movie, I
want to lose five pounds."
You try to go... because... just
to keep you going.
I can't sit here and think about
what's going on outside that
cell door every minute.
I'll go crazy.
So I definitely thought of my
life after.
>> HINOJOSA: So there's a lot of
talk about what happens when
these soldiers are taken
hostage.
One of the other soldiers was
Jessica Lynch.
And you witnessed a little bit
about what happened with Jessica
Lynch's story.
So talk to me a little bit about
what the media sees, the story
that is portrayed, and the
reality, and how you feel about
the fact that you're really in
the crosshairs of that.
>> JOHNSON: It's difficult, you know?
When we came home, Lynch had
already been rescued.
We came home, and there were so
many different stories about
what happened, and things like
that.
And we're like, "None of this
happened.
Where is this coming from?"
Of course, we got to talk to her
before anybody else did.
And she was at a loss, too,
because she hadn't been allowed
to speak to any reporters and
stuff at that time.
So I don't... we really didn't
understand where these stories
were coming from, how they were
blowing these things out of
proportion.
So it is eye-opening to be on
the other end of things, not
just as someone reading the
paper, but as the story itself
in the paper.
>> HINOJOSA: Did it make you
angry?
Does that...
>> JOHNSON: It got me angry, because it
wasn't the truth.
There were other people
involved, Sergeant Walters,
Patrick Miller, who they
attributed their actions to
Lynch.
These two individuals acted very
heroically, and they deserve
credit for what they did.
And Lynch felt the same way.
We all had a discussion about
it.
So we were eager to set the
story straight, but then there
was also the issue of we weren't
allowed to talk to the press
about it, because there was an
investigation being done by the
military.
And while the investigation was
ongoing, we weren't allowed to
speak to the press.
And that just fueled the fire,
it seemed.
>> HINOJOSA: And basically your
understanding is that...
the story out there in the media
is that basically you guys
messed up.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
That was another thing that...
>> HINOJOSA: Your unit had
problems, you guys weren't up to
par, you made mistakes, you made
bad choices.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
It's amazing how they can put
all the blame on these, what, 33
soldiers who had no control over
that much of what was going on.
And then when it comes down to
it, there are other people
within the military that had the
same problems.
They had problems with their
weapons.
Other people had issues, you
know, with their GPS and stuff
going down, and their becoming
lost.
It happened all the time.
We just happened to be caught in
the ambush.
And even parts of our
battalion... you know, other
units in our battalion had
issues also.
But that never was brought to
the light.
They wanted to put all the blame
on us and then walk away.
>> HINOJOSA: So when you look at
it right now... and I know that
you believe that what you went
through as a hostage is that it
did serve a purpose.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: But when you hear
what's happening right now with
the bigger push into
Afghanistan, and you see again
in the newspaper the names of
the soldiers... and this is not
Iraq now.
This is an entirely different
war.
Can you allow yourself to
question why we're there, is
this the right thing?
Can you do that?
>> JOHNSON: I will always question every
military action-- is this the
right one, will it get the job
done, will it cost us too many
American lives?
And I think that's my right as
an American citizen to question
that.
But it's always heartbreaking to
read more names being added to
the list of people I know.
>> HINOJOSA: Do you think we can
win this both in Iraq and
Afghanistan?
>> JOHNSON: I don't know.
I don't know.
Because people seem to think
that, you know, by military
action is the way we win it.
That's not necessarily true.
This is an ideology, and you
have to combat this on two
different fronts.
You know, this is... some of
these people are fighting for
their religion.
How do you fight... you know,
how is just a basic military
action going to combat that?
I'm very passionate about my
religion.
I expect they're very passionate
about theirs.
So it is not just a military
issue.
It's very much a political
issue, a social issue.
>> HINOJOSA: You come back, and
something... because the story,
of course, doesn't end with your
rescue, which was extraordinary,
and so many of us witnessed it.
I love the fact that you were
always worried about your hair.
It's like, "Wait, I'm a POW, but
how does the hair look?
Oh, my God, Mom, how could they
take..." I just... I love that
humanity, because, like, you're
a female soldier, but, you know,
you're still worried about the
hair.
>> JOHNSON: You know, I'm me, and at that
point I know I'm okay.
You know, I know I'm okay.
Those Marines had taken care of
business.
I was on my way home.
So I really was able to just
relax and think, "I'm going
home.
I can worry about normal stuff
now, not whether I'm going to
get a bullet in the head, or I'm
going to be fed, or I'm going to
be raped.
I can worry about normal stuff."
>> HINOJOSA: What was that
rescue like?
Because you had been waiting,
again, for 21 days.
You were like, "They're coming,
they're coming, they're coming.
>> JOHNSON: Oh, I was a little anxious.
I was like, you know, "Where is
the special forces?"
I know they are capable of
taking care of this situation.
But it was incredible,
incredible.
The Marines came breaking down
the door, just like in the
movies.
And they just handled business.
I had the opportunity to have
dinner a couple of days ago with
the general who gave the order
for our rescue.
Didn't call up to get permission
from anybody at the top.
>> HINOJOSA: Really?
>> JOHNSON: No, he didn't.
He got the information, and he
was like, "If I call up, they
might want to delay and stuff,
and we don't have time for that.
Let's do it."
>> HINOJOSA: Wow.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah, he made an outstanding
command decision to get it done,
and I am very appreciative,
because I don't know if we would
have been there if they'd
delayed.
>> HINOJOSA: You really felt
like they could have killed you
at any moment.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: Even though they
were treating you nicely.
>> JOHNSON: Treating us nicely, but we
were still in enemy hands.
I mean, our guards still had
weapons strapped to their hip
and things like that.
So...
>> HINOJOSA: It was real.
>> JOHNSON: It was real, very much real.
And we started to move from
home, from prisons to homes.
And to me that said, you know,
the situation is changing.
>> HINOJOSA: You end up coming
back, and, you know, people
would like to think that the
story ends there, right?
You're rescued, you come back,
you're with your family, you're
with your parents, you're with
your daughter.
And then you begin to realize
that you're suffering from
post-traumatic shock.
>> JOHNSON: Yeah.
>> HINOJOSA: And what was that
realization like?
Like, "Oh, my God, I thought I
was fine, I'm free, but here I
am..." what, you were yelling at
your family, you were fighting
with everyone.
What were some of the symptoms
that you saw?
>> JOHNSON: My family really saw it
first.
I was... had a quick temper, I
didn't sleep.
Sometimes if I did sleep I would
pop out of my sleep.
I mean, I'd jump out of bed.
You know, certain times I would
lose time-- I'd have a flashback
and go back to the day of the
ambush, and they're talking to
me and can't catch my attention,
and things like that.
It was... and I kept saying I
was fine-- "I'm fine, I'm fine."
>> HINOJOSA: Because soldiers
aren't supposed to get
post-traumatic stress disorder.
>> JOHNSON: Exactly.
I said, "After living through
all of this, this isn't going to
get me.
I'm fine."
And...
>> HINOJOSA: And it kind of did
get you.
>> JOHNSON: It did, it broke me down a
little bit.
And my parents came to me and
said, "Your daughter just came
to us and said, 'Mommy cries all
the time.'
When are you going to get some
help?"
And it... that's when it got me.
Here I am affecting my, you
know, two-year-old child.
I'm supposed to be raising her,
and I'm not capable of doing it.
I have to get help.
>> HINOJOSA: How hard is it for
an American soldier to say, "I
have post-traumatic shock and I
need help"?
>> JOHNSON: It's very difficult.
Our motto was, "You suck it up
and drive on."
You have to accomplish the
mission.
To admit that you are broken...
and not physically broken.
We can accept physical
limitations.
But you're broken inside and you
need help is very hard, is very
hard.
And there's a lot of stigma
attached to it.
But there is no shame.
There should be no shame in
admitting you need help.
You did what you had to do for
your job, for your country.
Saying you need help shouldn't
be an issue.
>> HINOJOSA: You actually are
now out of the army.
>> JOHNSON: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: And you are doing
what with your life?
>> JOHNSON: I am a culinary arts student,
finishing up my dream, this part
of my dream, and I shall be a
pastry chef.
I should graduate in spring of
2011.
So I'm happy.
>> HINOJOSA: Well, Shoshana
Johnson, thank you for your
story, thank you for your
service, and we are so happy
that you're alive.
>> JOHNSON: Thank you very much.
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