Sheena Iyengar

>> HINOJOSA: Every day we make

dozens of choices-- what to eat,

what to buy, what to do.

Our guest today is one of the

world's foremost experts on how

we decide-- social scientist and

author Sheena Iyengar.

I'm Maria Hinojosa.

This is One on One.

Sheena Iyengar, you are the

author of the book The Art of

Choosing.

And thank you for choosing to be

with us.

>> IYENGAR: Thank you for having me here

today.

>> HINOJOSA: So your book starts

out basically where you lay out

two narratives of your own

personal history.

You were born in Canada, parents

are from India, the Sikh

religion, and you basically say,

"Here's one story of how my life

could be seen, more like a

victim, and here's another story

of how my life could be seen,

which is a life of extraordinary

possibilities and choice."

And you basically say you want

us all to think about how we

choose the narrative of our own

life.

Because how we choose to see

ourselves says everything about

kind of how we do end up seeing

ourselves.

Am I right?

>> IYENGAR: Yes.

If I were to ask you, you know,

"Why are you here-- what is it

that ended up making you do what

you to today?" you along with

anyone else, if you were to

answer that question, you could

give me any one of three

versions of that story.

You could tell me how you were

destined to be here.

You could tell me how there was

some fortunate event that led

you to be here, some chance

event.

Or you could tell me the story

of how you chose to be here.

And I think that it's probably

accurate to say that any of

those stories might be true, or

at least not falsifiable.

But I think there's something

special when you tell the story

of your life in terms of choice,

because when you tell the story

of your life in terms of choice,

it gives everything you say and

do some greater meaning, and it

also enables you to think about

the possibilities, the ways that

you can take control of your

life.

Because unlike fate and chance,

choice is really the only thing

we have in our life that enables

us to go from who we are today

to whom we want to be tomorrow.

>> HINOJOSA: But your own

personal story is so amazing in

the sense that in the Sikh

religion, there's not a lot of

choices that you are given.

So because there are a lot of

people who don't know a lot

about the Sikh beliefs-- and I

didn't, as I read more and more

about your own story-- lay it

out for us.

>> IYENGAR: Well, you know, it's an

entirely different model of life

from the American model of life.

So when you are born as a Sikh,

you know, you're born into a

particular religious set of

rituals.

And so when I was growing up I

used to go to the Sikh temple,

the Gurdwara, on Friday night,

on Saturday night, and most of

Sunday.

And there's lots of different

things you're supposed to

follow.

You know, you take the advice of

your elders, you do what your

parents tell you to do, you

dress conservatively, you wear a

steel bracelet on your right arm

at all times, you never cut your

hair, you are not allowed to

ever take off your underwear.

That's supposed to be a symbol

of being able to control any

sexual impulses.

And so, for example, when I was

growing up, you had to keep your

underwear on even when you were

taking a shower.

>> HINOJOSA: I was wondering if

you were going to bring that up.

I said, "I'm not going to ask

Sheena about that, because it's

a little..." but you write...

>> IYENGAR: I always thought that was so,

you know, weird when I was

growing up.

And, you know, my parents'

marriage, for example, was

arranged, and in fact most of

the aunties and uncles... you

know, everybody's marriage was

arranged.

It was a rare event that anybody

chose, quote-unquote, their

spouse.

And that was considered a bit

odd, to do something like that.

And your career was very much

selected by, you know, the

advice of your parents or the

elders in the household.

And that was really the way the

Sikh lifestyle was.

>> HINOJOSA: Not a lot of

choice.

A lot of things predetermined

for you, decided by people...

>> IYENGAR: Certainly not a lot of

personal choice.

There was choosing going on, but

it was not a lot of personal

choice, in that if you were to

make a choice, that was

something that was earned.

That was something that came as

a function of age and

experience, so to speak.

Whereas as an American, when I

was growing up, you were

constantly told you were

supposed to make the choices in

life, you were supposed to

decide what you were going to

wear and how you...

>> HINOJOSA: But let's step back

for one second so people realize

you were born in Canada, but

then your parents moved to New

York, and you were being raised

in Queens.

>> IYENGAR: Yes.

>> HINOJOSA: And when you're

being raised... now, something

happens to you when you're a

young girl that you didn't quite

understand.

You started bumping into a lot

of things, walls.

>> IYENGAR: Yes.

>> HINOJOSA: And things like

that.

And when your parents finally

took you to the doctor, it

turned out that you were

actually going blind.

>> IYENGAR: Yes, I was born with

retinitis pigmentosa.

>> HINOJOSA: And what was that

like?

I've read that your parents

didn't really want you talking

about the fact that you were

blind.

>> IYENGAR: Yes.

You know, I think they didn't

quite know what to make of it,

you know?

And there certainly was this

fear that in society they would

somehow get pitied or labeled in

some way.

You know, remember, I said we

went to Gurdwara Friday night,

Saturday night, and all day

Sunday.

They didn't want people to be

staring at them.

So I did spend a good portion of

my childhood trying to, you

know, not let people know.

So I almost had two lives, where

in the Gurdwara you were always

trying to hide it, and in school

you were, of course, labeled as

the one that had the special

needs.

>> HINOJOSA: What was that like

for you, to know that, you know,

this is who you are, and yet you

weren't really being allowed to

kind of choose how you dealt

with the fact that you were

blind?

>> IYENGAR: Well, it was certainly

difficult to pretend.

I mean, it was certainly, at

times, stressful.

>> HINOJOSA: I can't even

imagine what that is like.

>> IYENGAR: Well, you do start to develop

some interesting tricks, which

actually have helped me over the

years.

>> HINOJOSA: For example?

>> IYENGAR: Well, now I can't get away

with them, but for example, if I

would drop something I would

pretend as if I didn't hear it,

so that somebody else would

notice and pick it up.

>> HINOJOSA: Oh.

>> IYENGAR: And I did pick up a lot of

tricks that actually do still

help me.

I did develop skills on sensing

wind and knowing when there was

a turn, because of the wind

change, or when there was a

building because of the wind

change.

I mean, it did force me to

develop certain skill sets that

I probably would not have

developed otherwise.

>> HINOJOSA: So you basically

say that when you were growing

up, you were living, you say,

two lives.

>> IYENGAR: Mm-hmm.

>> HINOJOSA: At least two lives.

I mean, speaking two languages,

right?

Two cultural languages, and

actually, if you add blindness,

that would be almost a third

one, right?

>> IYENGAR: Yeah, I guess you could say

that.

I do think as a blind person you

end up becoming cognizant of the

different kind of... set of

issues and lifestyle that... you

know, there is the sort of

sighted world versus the blind

world, I suppose.

>> HINOJOSA: But if you came

from a background where choice

was something that was not

encouraged, necessarily, or

certainly not... you know, it's

not as if your choice is the

freedom of the Sikh people.

No, no, no, it's not like that.

So why did you end up being

fascinated with the art of

choosing?

>> IYENGAR: Well, I think it was because

of the fact that, you know, I

think had I been born just an

American, or been born just a

Sikh and grown up in India, I

don't think I would have been.

Because then you know what's,

quote, the right way of

thinking, because you don't have

to debate about it.

And whereas because I was

growing up in two different

cultures simultaneously, and I

was imbibing both, as an

impressionable child growing up,

it wasn't obvious to me which

one I was supposed to follow.

You know, whereas for my

parents, they could be more

clear in the head and say,

"Well, no, the American way is

clearly wrong."

And the Americans were very sure

that the Indian way was clearly

wrong.

I mean, how dare somebody choose

who I marry?

I mean, Americans always thought

that was horrific.

But for me, both systems sort of

made sense, you know?

I saw my parents, I saw my aunts

and uncles.

They didn't look like they were

horrific marriages.

And I saw my American friends'

parents, and they didn't look

like awful marriages either.

So then you were sort of

thinking to yourself, "Oh, okay,

so how am I supposed to choose?

What's the correct way to make

this choice?"

And I think it was that internal

conflict that essentially...

because I had to constantly

engage in that conflict, that

got me interested in choice.

When I actually started to do

research, I think I was just

naturally drawn to the questions

about choice.

>> HINOJOSA: Sheena, let's talk

a little bit about how people

choose, depending on their

culture or even their... where

they come from, their countries.

How does it differ?

So, for example, choice in,

let's say, America, versus,

let's say, choice in a Latin

American country versus choice

in a predominantly Muslim

country.

>> IYENGAR: Mm-hmm.

You know, we... from the moment

we're born, we're taught how to

think about choice.

And we're taught this explicitly

and implicitly in our culture.

So, you know, say, as an

American, I'm always... it's

always really funny when you go

to the grocery store and you see

these moms asking their

two-year-old kids, "And what

kind of cereal would you like,

honey?"

>> HINOJOSA: But we're told that

we're... you know, as parents in

this country, we are told...

>> IYENGAR: Absolutely.

>> HINOJOSA: ..."Give your

children that choice, make them

into good choosers."

>> IYENGAR: Yes.

And we ask our children at the

age of four, "What do you want

to be when you grow up?"

And it's not that we're saying

that we trust your choice.

We're saying implicitly, "We

understand you're going to

change your mind."

But we're saying, you know,

"Look, these are the kinds of

things you need to learn to

know.

You need to know what kind of

cereal you want, you need to

know and figure out who you're

going to grow up to be, and what

you're going to do."

Now, by contrast, when you go to

other cultures, that's not

always the message that they're

given.

So, you know, say, in many

collectivist cultures, whether

they be in Latin American

culture, Asian cultures, whether

it be Japan or China or India,

there the message is, you know,

"You've got to respect your

parents," or, "You need to

respect your god."

And, you know, your parents

should be thought of as the ones

that are the main decision

makers, at least until you are

equipped and experienced enough

to be able to take on that

quote-unquote responsibility,

right?

So for example, you know, kids

are not asked in India or China

or Japan, "What are you going to

be when you grow up?"

It's understood that your

parents are going to help make

that decision.

>> HINOJOSA: But there's a big

trust element there, right?

>> IYENGAR: Yes.

>> HINOJOSA: And trust is

central.

>> IYENGAR: Yes, I think so.

>> HINOJOSA: So...

>> IYENGAR: And in fact, it's interesting

you mentioned trust, and you

also asked me about Latin

Americans.

When you look at employees... I

did a big study with Citibank

employees.

And we looked at... so say for

example if you compare Latino

employees in Mexico, Brazil,

Argentina, versus Asian

employees, Taiwan, Singapore,

Hong Kong, et cetera, versus

Americans, and you look at in

which condition are they most

likely to perform well,

Americans perform best when they

feel their manager is giving

them choice, is empowering them

to make decisions, giving them

autonomy.

That's very important to

Americans.

Latinos, I mean, it's not a bad

thing, they're not getting mad

or upset if their manager says,

you know, "You can decide when

you take your vacation, when you

do your breaks, how you get your

job done."

What matters to them most is if

they feel their manager cares

about them.

Is this manager somebody they

can trust, that they have good

rapport with?

That is more important than

whether they get choice or no

choice.

And similarly, with Asians, what

you see is that for them it's

not whether they get choice.

If anything, they want

direction.

They want to feel that their

manager knows what's going on,

can give them direction and

guidance to make sure that the

job gets done well.

So they're all headed for the

same end goal, which is we want

to do our job well.

But the way they feel that you

get there is through very

different processes.

>> HINOJOSA: I think about

something my mother told me.

My mom was born in Mexico,

married at 17 to my father, and

for the first part of her life

was a housewife.

And I remember my mom saying to

me... I guess I must have been,

you know, a young professional,

just finding my way in the

world, clearly not on the path

to get immediately married.

And she just said, "Ay, majita,

you know, I worry so much about

the young women today in

America.

You have so many choices, so

many things to choose from."

She's like, "I didn't have any

choices.

I knew what was going to

happen."

And she said, "Sometimes I see

that you're so worried about the

decisions you're going to make.

Ay, majita, I'm so sad."

She was almost like, "It's rough

having so many things to choose

from."

And I was kind of like... yeah,

I understood her perspective, in

the sense that, yeah, it's hard,

you know?

I mean, sometimes in America we

have too much to choose from.

And that's something that you

kind of have spent a lot of time

looking at.

>> IYENGAR: Absolutely, yes.

I'm... you know, I started that

research kind of by accident.

I was looking at cultural

differences between Asian and

Anglo American children, because

I felt that, well, you know, as

an Asian you're taught the

benefits of having others

choose, whereas as an American

you're taught the benefits of

choosing for yourself.

And so I began to look at Asian

and Anglo American children, and

I was trying to show, or wanted

to test the hypothesis, anyway,

that Asian children didn't care

as much about choice.

And I brought these kids into a

room, and they were little

kids, and I gave them either a

situation where they had lots of

toys to choose from, or just one

toy.

And I couldn't get anybody to

play with the toys when they had

a lot of choices to choose from.

And I couldn't get it.

I was like, "Wait a minute.

Everybody's supposed to love

choice.

At least the Americans are."

And I kept adding more and more

choice.

I figured I was just giving them

the wrong set of toys, we

weren't giving them exciting

enough toys.

And I kept giving them more and

more toys.

And finally I just decided to

give them six toys.

And that's when I began to see

the difference between... at

least for Americans, where for

the American kids, if they had a

choice of six, they were more

motivated, and they played more

than if they were just simply

told what toy to play with.

And that was what really got me

started in thinking about

whether there were some negative

consequences to offering people

more and more and more choice.

>> HINOJOSA: And when you put

that down in writing in a book,

The Art of Choosing, oh, my

gosh.

There was, you know, "Just wait

a second.

What is Sheena Iyengar saying?

She is saying that in America,

where we value having the

freedom of choice about

everything..." and Sheena in her

experiment is saying, "Give

people too many things to choose

from, and they become

overwhelmed."

And you were called lots of

different things.

But some people said, "You are

criticizing the heart of who we

are as Americans."

>> IYENGAR: Yes.

In fact I think it was Rush

Limbaugh that referred to me as

a "pointy headed intellectual

that didn't know the first thing

about the marketplace."

>> HINOJOSA: And what do you say

to that?

I mean, were you taken aback a

little bit by the criticism when

you were just saying, "Look, I'm

a social scientist, I conducted

experiments..." you know, the

jam problem.

People may have heard about the

jam problem, which is your

experiment of putting jams in a

supermarket, and whether or not

people would choose a preferred

jam, and if they had too many

choices, they ended up perhaps

not ending up buying one of the

jams.

But if you gave them three

choices, then they would usually

say, "Out of these three, I can

see which one I like, and I

think I'm going to go buy it."

>> IYENGAR: Yeah.

I mean, to be honest with you,

when I first ran the experiment,

I didn't have an agenda.

I didn't have a particular

ideology that I was trying to

promote.

I just ran the study, and I was

just as surprised as anybody

else was.

And then when Rush Limbaugh went

out there and critiqued me, and

a lot of people kind of got

scared by the finding, and then

there were other people that

sort of identified it as the

problem of the century, I have

to admit, I was taken aback,

because I hadn't realized the

implications of it.

And it's only as I've been doing

more and more studies over the

years and looking at the

consequences of offering people

more choice, and I have to say,

other colleagues... it's now

become a whole industry of

research, looking at the effects

of offering people more choice.

It's only as time has gone by

that I've realized this is a

much bigger problem than just

choosing jam.

>> HINOJOSA: What is the bigger

problem?

>> IYENGAR: Well, I think the recent book

Freedom by Jonathan Franzen

does a really good job of

illustrating the big problem, I

think, in our life-- that we've

essentially... because we can...

we have the, quote, right to do

whatever we want at any point in

time, that we have lost sight of

having that formula or even a

criteria by which to judge how

we're supposed to live.

And that makes it really

complicated.

How are we supposed to know what

we want?

How are we supposed to know

whether what we have chosen is

what we should have chosen, what

will do us well in the long run?

And that at times makes us

depressed.

>> HINOJOSA: Is there a sense

that... the moment in history

that we're living in this

country right now, there is so

much uncertainty about

everything.

>> IYENGAR: Yes.

>> HINOJOSA: I mean, everything.

And therefore... and there are

so many different ways in which,

you know, if you're unemployed,

how are you going to do this,

you know, establishing a new

career.

I mean, we are overwhelmed with

a kind of a crisis, and then

lots of possibilities.

And you say that it can be

depressing.

>> IYENGAR: It can be depressing, yes.

Because I think in the end,

while it seems really

motivating, this ability to have

a blank sheet of paper and jot

down every single line and every

single letter and comma, you

know, in terms of the story of

our life, that is more

motivating in theory than in

practice.

Because that can be quite

paralyzing when you realize you

have to write every single

letter and dot every single I.

In a sense, having at least some

basic script to work off of, so

that you have some certainty,

some sense of stability or a

rudder, is actually more

motivating in practice.

>> HINOJOSA: And you also found

that in terms of religions,

conservative orthodox religions,

you actually found that even

though they are more rigid in

terms of how people live their

lives, that actually people who

come from those more

conservative fundamentalist

religious perspectives are

actually happier.

>> IYENGAR: They are.

You know, and I have to admit I

was surprised by that research,

too.

You know, I had grown up Sikh,

and I was looking for freedom.

There was no doubt about that

when I went to college-- I was

looking for freedom.

And the first thing I did was

cut my hair.

>> HINOJOSA: I was going to say,

the first thing you did was cut

your hair.

And it was...

>> IYENGAR: It was not good.

I think... you know, my mom

didn't talk to me for quite some

time after that.

>> HINOJOSA: How much time?

>> IYENGAR: I don't even remember, so...

I try to block such things out

of my memory bank.

But... and I've certainly had a

number of cousins that were

disowned for the same sin.

But, you know, so I was doing

this study, and I assumed that

religion would actually be

negative in terms of our well

being, that it would actually

make us more depressed.

Because after all, it was taking

away your freedom.

But I found the opposite.

And, you know, what that then,

in a sense, led me to start

thinking about and researching,

was this idea that having some

set of rules and guidelines, as

long as you can buy into them

and believe in them, can

actually help create a sense of

certainty, some stability,

reduces some amount of

ambiguity.

And that frees up your mind, it

frees up your... you know, your

efforts, to just focus on a few

choices that you can do well at.

>> HINOJOSA: So what you write

is that in your research you've

actually found that if you have

people who are suffering from a

very severe illness, their

choice to look at this in a

positive way, or to believe that

they can overcome maybe even a

terminal illness, actually makes

a big difference in their

lives-- in the length of their

lives, and in how they live

those lives.

How can we learn... and I know

everybody's saying, "Well, I

want to know how to do that."

How do you learn how to think

positive and make positive

choices when maybe you're not

feeling so positive, and you

don't feel like the choices are

all positive ones?

How do you learn how to be a

person who makes choice from a

positive place?

>> IYENGAR: Well, I guess it goes back to

how we started when we were

talking about fate, chance and

choice, right?

You could interpret your illness

as being about destiny, "It's

now time for me to die," chance,

"I got unlucky, so it's over

now," or in terms of choice.

And you think about it in terms

of choice, that means, "Okay,

this is a bad lot.

Here are the bad things.

Here are the things I can't

control.

But what are the things that I

can do which will give me

control?"

And if you direct your mind

towards the things that you can

control, that you can choose,

then it can improve your mood.

>> HINOJOSA: Control is a

central part of this, right?

Believing that you have the

ability to control something of

the environment around choice.

>> IYENGAR: Yes.

And, you know, I don't want to

confuse people when I say... on

the one hand I'm saying, "Look,

too much choice is bad," on the

other hand I'm saying, "You'd

better see your life in terms of

choice."

And what I mean there is that

what's most important is the

belief that you have control.

And what gives you that belief

is by having choice that you can

understand, that you can take

control over.

If you have choices that you

don't understand, that you don't

know how to deal with, that

actually makes you feel less in

control.

So what's key here is the

feeling of control.

>> IYENGAR: So how can we learn, Sheena,

to become effective choosers?

>> IYENGAR: I recently wrote an afterword

for my book to give people tips

on how they can become more

effective at using some of the

things I talked about in the

book.

So if I would say there was one

thing you had to choose in order

to become a more effective

chooser, that's to become more

choosy about choice, about when

you make a choice.

So...

>> HINOJOSA: About when.

>> IYENGAR: About when.

And when are those moments that

you are going to put in the

effort to make a choice?

I think we have to become more

choosy about that.

One of the things that I have my

students do, typically on the

last day of class, is I have

them jot down all the things

that are important to them.

And they can make that list, I

tell them, as long as they want.

They can say, oh, work-life

balance, making a lot of money.

Whatever they want, they can jot

it down.

Then I tell them, "Now, cross

off everything other than the

top five that you absolutely

under no condition,

circumstances, can live without.

Of course, at that point they

want to negotiate with me and

make it seven or nine or ten.

And I always stick to my guns--

it has to be no more than five.

And once you get to those five,

that is your compass.

That's your compass for knowing

only choices related to those

things that are really, really

at the top of your priority

list, are the ones that you will

put the effort of making a

really informed choice.

Because choice is not purely

fun.

It's an effortful activity, and

we should recognize it as such.

To get the most out of choice,

you should be putting effort

into that.

>> HINOJOSA: Well, Sheena, thank

you for letting us understand

that we can make a lot of

choices about how we move

forward.

It's been a beautiful interview.

Thank you so much for joining

us.

>> IYENGAR: Thank you.