Transcript
>> HINOJOSA: It's the fifth
largest country in the world,
and it's becoming a major player
in the global economy.
But beyond Carnivale, samba, and
soccer, what do we really know
about Brazil?
Today, a conversation with the
director of the Brazil Institute
at the Woodrow Wilson Center,
Paulo Sotero.
I'm Maria Hinojosa.
This is One on One.
Paulo Sotero, you are the head
of the Woodrow Wilson Center's
Brazil Institute in Washington,
DC, longtime journalist covering
the United States for Brazil.
And I just have to ask you, you
know, so many people think about
Brazil as being this faraway
tropical country, you know, far,
deep in the south.
But in fact, Brazil is a growing
superpower.
It's gone through an
extraordinary transformation in
the past 20 years.
So the last time that I was
there was 1997.
If I was to go back to Rio or
Sao Paolo now, would I see a
difference?
What would I see?
>> SOTERO: You would see a country whose
people is more comfortable with
the current... its current
situation.
There is a sense of hope that
has been restored to the country
compared to that time.
That was the time when we had
established democracy,
reestablished democracy, but we
were entering the period of
economic stability.
Democracy and economic stability
have been the two pillars upon
which two Brazilian governments,
the government led by President
Fernando Henrique Cardoso and
the government led by President
Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, built
the current reality of Brazil,
which is a promising reality.
>> HINOJOSA: A promising
reality.
And yet, you know, I think back
to the first time that I was in
Brazil, in 1982, and if you were
a supporter of Lula, if you were
a member of the PT, the Partito
dos Trabalhadores, the Workers
Party, you basically were living
in fear from being arrested,
from being somehow tied to Lula.
And then he becomes President.
>> SOTERO: Yeah, that is the beauty of
democracy.
In 1982 Lula had just formed the
Workers Party that...
>> HINOJOSA: He was a union
organizer.
>> SOTERO: A union organizer in '79.
>> HINOJOSA: Very much from the
people.
>> SOTERO: From the people, from... a
migrant worker from the
northeast.
>> HINOJOSA: He was a shoeshine
boy.
>> SOTERO: Shoeshine boy, and then he
was sort of a mechanic in the
auto industry in the outskirts
of Sao Paolo, a very intelligent
man that finished high school in
this GED kind of program, and
led the strikes against... in
the auto industry in the late
'70s.
>> HINOJOSA: He was a big lefty.
I mean, he was a... was he a
socialist?
There was a time when Lula da
Silva was a socialist.
>> SOTERO: He was a Catholic.
His main drive was social
justice.
The Lula Marxist, the Lula
leftist, the Lula that acquires
this language, is a later Lula.
The Lula of Sao Bernardo do
Campo is the man that reinvented
the unions in Brazil that used
to be controlled by the
Communist party.
The Communist party used to hate
Lula because he introduced the
sort of US model of unions in
Brazil, saying that, you know,
"I want results.
I want cars.
My members need to have a better
life."
>> HINOJOSA: So it was about
increasing productivity, in a
sense.
>> SOTERO: Increasing productivity,
increasing benefits.
Real, concrete benefits for
workers.
>> HINOJOSA: And he was
criticized from the left because
he wasn't revolutionary enough.
>> SOTERO: He was not revolutionary in
the sense of an armed struggle.
We had had some of that in
Brazil.
He was criticized by the
communists.
But he was... some businessmen
started to pay attention to him,
because he wanted to negotiate.
He wanted truly to sit down and
take their concerns into
consideration as long as they
took into consideration the
concerns of the workers.
>> HINOJOSA: So there were many
years there where again Brazil
was kind of seen as this, you
know, struggling, indebted, very
unequal... you know, a
superpower maybe in the sense
because they had a lot of
resources.
But what is the thing that has
helped Brazil now be one of
these places where, at least in
terms of American investors,
they're looking at Brazil and
saying, "Wow, we could make a
lot of money if we start
investing in Brazil, of all
places"?
>> SOTERO: Well, Americans have
always invested in Brazil.
You know, Ford Motor Company,
GM, had been in Brazil forever.
General Electric, all those
companies.
Now, what has happened in Brazil
is that in the '90s we figured
out how to beat inflation, and
we figured out how to make a
market economy work in Brazil, a
country where the state has
always had a very important
presence, and a positive
presence.
The initial sort of productive
system in Brazil, industry, et
cetera, was built by the state
in Brazil.
In the '90s, we start to reform,
we start to make the system work
more efficiently.
President Cardoso is responsible
for that.
He put down the foundations for
what Lula continued.
>> HINOJOSA: Which is
interesting, because as a
student of Latin American
Studies when I was in college in
the 1980s, I was reading
Fernando Henrique Cardoso.
He was an intellectual who was
talking about how to develop
underdeveloped countries.
Is his... is Cardoso's legacy,
and then Lula's legacy, what
essentially created this
foundation for Brazil to be
lifted out of this kind of third
world...
>> SOTERO: I believe historians of the
future will study this period,
and they'll see that Cardoso and
Lula were parts of the same
moment.
It's interesting-- a member of
the Brazilian elite, Cardoso, a
member of... a man of the
people, Lula, that becomes
President.
And Lula becoming President in a
stable... economically stable
Brazil was very important.
And Lula having been a
successful President is
absolutely important for Brazil,
because for the first time-- and
here I repeat what Cardoso said
as President, but based on what
he's learned as a sociologist--
Brazil is not an underdeveloped
country.
Brazil is just an unjust
country.
A sense... it's very powerful to
have a person like Lula, a
migrant worker, that comes from
the poor, that builds...
reinvents himself in this very
unequal situation socially.
And that helps, eventually, the
country to adopt or to
consolidate a system that is
basically, you know...
>> HINOJOSA: Capitalism.
>> SOTERO: Capitalism.
It took two socialists in Brazil
to consolidate capitalism.
>> HINOJOSA: That's, I guess,
kind of when I was stuck, when
you said, you know, that
basically what's happening is
that Brazil has moved into
capitalism.
Because it's true.
Cardoso and Lula were from the
left.
>> SOTERO: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: So is this a new
left in terms of the world
order?
What does... and let me just
start... actually world order
small scale, because Brazil,
when you think about it, is
surrounded by countries that are
not as... not at all as
developed as Brazil.
I mean, you have Guyana, you
have Suriname, you have Bolivia.
Colombia, Venezuela, more
developed.
So what is the relationship now
in terms of South America?
>> SOTERO: You know, one of the
qualities of Brazil, Brazilian
diplomacy-- this is for 100
years-- is to have... maintain
very good relations with
neighbors.
We are one of the few countries
on earth that has eight
neighbors.
One of the reasons we are good
diplomats is because not only we
have the temperament for
democracy... we are great
negotiators.
I think it comes from our
Portuguese soul.
But it's also because we had to.
We had eight neighbors,
neighbors that were very
frequently fighting among
themselves.
So...
>> HINOJOSA: So is Brazil also
thinking now, "We have eight
neighbors, we're very wealthy,
we're developing, our economy is
growing," you're going to have
an immigration problem?
>> SOTERO: No.
We have already started.
You have 100,000 immigrants from
Bolivia.
That's one of the poorest
countries in the hemisphere.
Brazil... it's the longest
border Brazil has with any
country, is Bolivia.
Now, how we go about this, I
think we're doing it quite
competently.
Of the 100,000 illegal
immigrants that arrived from
Bolivia in the past few years,
80,000 are or are in the process
of being legal residents of
Brazil.
The challenge for Brazil, you
know, as we continue to prosper,
we are going to probably become
economically even more important
than we are now.
We are 60% of the economy of
South America.
We are likely going to become 65
and 70% in the next ten years.
Now, the challenge is to make
our... to share our prosperity
so we can help countries like
Bolivia, about ten million
people, Paraguay, about five
million people.
Those are countries that are
completely dependent on the
Brazilian economy.
Also, Argentina and Peru and
Colombia and all the countries
in the Amazon, we have to be
wise, to share this prosperity.
How we'll do this?
Integrate our economies.
Build more infrastructure, more
roads, more contacts.
We can benefit from that, and
they can benefit from our
development.
>> HINOJOSA: Okay.
But at the same time, you're
talking about Brazil now
geopolitically.
It's not just its relationship
in terms of Latin America.
But you're also talking about
Brazil making relationships now
with the BRIC, which is the
Brazil Russia India China
coalition.
You have Brazil having lots of
conversations with Iran.
You have Brazil having
conversations with Chavez in
Venezuela.
So, you know, where do you see
Brazil as a geopolitical
character?
>> SOTERO: I think it's a work in
progress.
Brazil... I don't... I would not
characterize Brazil as a
superpower.
I would characterize China as a
potential superpower.
The only superpower is still the
United States.
Now, Brazil is an emerging
power, is an important global
player.
There are issues of interest to
the world.
Go talk about agriculture.
You cannot have a reasonable
conversation about agriculture
without talking to Brazil,
because Brazil is the most
productive agricultural nation
on earth.
You cannot have a reasonable
conversation, an intelligent
conversation, about climate
change without Brazil at the
table.
About increasing the
international security,
President Lula tried in 2010 to
have a say on how to bring Iran
to the conversation.
It was a failed attempt.
It did not work.
But Brazil... we believe in
Brazil that we have a vocation
to promote peace.
And we can, I think, be a
positive presence in the world.
It depends on how we use our
assets.
But Brazil has, under President
Lula... it started with Cardosa,
continued, was deepened by
President Lula, two leaders
that, by the way, were the
people that introduced
presidential diplomacy in
Brazil, because they had the
capacity and they had the talent
to do that.
And Brazil is sort of emerging,
and we are in the very process
of finding our place, and where
we can better advance our
interests.
>> HINOJOSA: But you know that
there are people who are going
to say, "Well, that's wonderful
that..." and while Brazil is
not, as you say, a superpower,
but it is a growing... a growing
power that can't be forgotten.
But there are people who say,
"Well, Brazil now has more
millionaires than India."
>> SOTERO: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: And Brazil's middle
class has grown.
>> SOTERO: Mm-hmm.
>> HINOJOSA: But how does Brazil
manage its own... you're talking
about an international scale.
But within its own boundaries of
inequality, slavery, destroying
the environment, the Amazon,
indigenous people...
>> SOTERO: By dealing with those issues.
And this is what we have been
doing.
I think that, you know, there is
an awareness of Brazil... you
talk to Brazilian diplomats, and
they will tell you, you can
project abroad only what you
are.
You know, you think about the
United States today, the United
States is a country in relative
decline.
There are issues that United
States had resolved, and are
back, like growing inequality.
Brazil is still building and
trying to resolve that, making
progress.
About 30 million people in
Brazil that used to be lumped
with the ranks of the poor now
belong to the ranks of the lower
middle class.
Talk to people from Proctor and
Gamble, and other American
companies.
They are absolutely in love with
Brazil.
They are building their... their
business in Brazil are going up
30% a year.
Why?
Because Brazilians are having
access... you know, more and
more Brazilian consumers.
>> HINOJOSA: It's really
extraordinary.
Some of the meat packing
industry now... Brazil has the
largest... is the largest meat
packing producer, or one of the
largest?
>> SOTERO: The largest meat producer.
>> HINOJOSA: Meat producer?
>> SOTERO: We have... we joke and we say
that we have as many people as
we have cows.
We have 200 million cows in
Brazil.
We are one of the major
companies in the meat packing
industry in this area.
Now in the United States is a
Brazilian company.
>> HINOJOSA: And you have now
uncovered vast oil deposits that
are extraordinary.
>> SOTERO: And this is another
challenge, because we are the
country that has the best energy
matrix on earth.
47% of all energy consumed in
Brazil comes from renewable
sources.
>> HINOJOSA: So let's just say
that again, because I think it's
important for people to hear
that.
47... almost half of the energy
used in Brazil is produced with
renewable sources.
>> SOTERO: Yes, compared to about 7% in
the industrialized world.
Now, why is that?
Because of hydroelectric
electricity for houses, for
industry, et cetera.
Comes in part from that.
80% of the electricity used in
Brazil comes from hydro.
We have also a new industry
which is sugar cane ethanol,
which is a carbon reducing
activity that has made gasoline
an alternative fuel in Brazil.
Most cars that you see in the
streets in the cities and the
roads are using ethanol, not
gasoline.
So... and also, in the process
of making ethanol, you produce a
lot of electricity, because we
burn the gas of the sugar cane
to power the mills, and the
mills use only one-third of that
energy.
The rest goes to the grid.
Now, the question for us now is
to integrate this new wealth
that we have, this pre-salt
province, this is offshore.
We have found enormous reserves
of gas on shore also.
It's to integrate all this into
a strategy where Brazil can keep
its clean energy matrix.
It's not an easy task, and it's
the challenge of a country that
has an abundance of energy
resources in a very diverse...
>> HINOJOSA: Shouldn't everybody
be so lucky, to have an
abundance of energy sources?
But most people have a sense of
Brazil... maybe they don't know
so much about the economic
development and the kind of
boom, but they do know that
there are confrontations, that
there is a real struggle going
on in every way in terms of the
environment, in terms of the
indigenous, in terms of the
black population.
>> SOTERO: Yes..
We have... let me talk about the
Amazon a little bit.
About what, 15, 20% of the
Brazilian population live in
what we call the Legal Amazon,
which takes about half of the
territory.
So up to 30, 40%... 40 million
people.
Now, in Brazil in the last 30
years, there has been a complete
change in the way we think about
the Amazon.
The Amazon is now... is
increasingly... I think the
protection levels are
increasing.
Deforestation has decreased.
It has not disappeared.
It's still a problem.
But more and more people,
especially people from the
agricultural sector, is
realizing that we need to keep
the Amazon there, not only
because we... not because we are
tree huggers.
We are not.
But because the Amazon is the
physical element that controls
the rain patterns in Brazil.
The Amazon...
>> HINOJOSA: But if you say that
there's an understanding that's
different, then why in the news
are we always hearing that still
the issue around the Amazon is a
battle, and, you know, that it
is not being protected?
>> SOTERO: In part... here is a
criticism for the rest of the
world.
In part because it's easy to
talk about protection of the
environment in the Amazon than
protection of the environment in
their own countries.
You know, Brazil is somewhat
used for that purpose.
Everybody becomes a wonderful
environmentalist in the Amazon.
Try to concentrate part of that
energy where you live, whatever
country you are.
>> HINOJOSA: Sounds like you're
not so happy when you have so
many outside environmentalists
coming in.
>> SOTERO: No, no, no.
We are welcoming the
environmentalists, et cetera.
But just to make, you know, a
point that let's work together
in the Amazon, et cetera, but...
>> HINOJOSA: But don't come here
and tell us what we need to do.
>> SOTERO: You know, we know what we
need to do.
It's a matter of resources, and
we work in cooperation with
foreign governments, with
foreign individuals.
That's not the problem.
But just to make... you know,
let's not make the Amazon...
actually, I don't know if the
Amazon is the major
environmental problem in Brazil.
I am from the South.
I think industrial pollution is
as big a problem for Brazilians.
Now, the Amazon has an impact
internationally, in the world
environment, and it is not only
important for Brazil to preserve
for the reasons I mentioned to
you.
We need to preserve the Amazon
to keep our agriculture
productive in the South.
The Amazon is what gives us the
reins that helps to make
Brazilian agriculture, along
with other issues, other
elements, a very productive one.
We need also to do that because
environmental policy, in my
view, is a ticket for world
leadership.
Brazil is a country that has...
>> HINOJOSA: And do you believe
that that's kind of also become
part of the tone that Brazil is
setting, which is, "We
understand that in order to be
world leaders we must be
completely respected on the
issue of the environment"?
>> SOTERO: Yes.
We have to be credible.
For instance, in the election
that happened last year, the
leader of the environmental
movement in Brazil was a very
successful candidate, got 20% of
the election, for bringing those
issues to the table.
A Pew Research Center that was
concluded in 2010 has shown that
the Brazilian people is the
people that worries most in the
world about climate change.
>> HINOJOSA: Really?
>> SOTERO: 84% of Brazilians think that
climate change is a serious
issue.
>> HINOJOSA: Is that because so
much of it is talked about?
>> SOTERO: Yes.
And because, you know, there is
an awareness that we have, you
know, all this wealth.
This is ours, the Amazon is
ours, and also of eight
countries that share the Amazon
with us.
And we have here a resource
that's very precious.
The threat to the Amazon today,
you're talking about cattle,
cattle ranching.
There is now in the Amazon
cities, et cetera, that want to
have the green seal of approval.
>> HINOJOSA: Let me ask you
before we finish, Paulo, because
in... even in the area of
Boston, where we record this
show, you have a large
population of Brazilians.
You have... they produce 20
local papers, magazines.
You have a large population,
somewhat large, in New York,
Connecticut, Florida.
Do you think that you have a
population now that is looking
at Brazil and saying, "When I
left, Brazil was a struggling
economy, and now I'm in the
United States, the United States
is a struggling economy, maybe I
should go back to Brazil"?
>> SOTERO: The immigrants, the
Brazilians that live here, have
a much better chance if they go
back to Brazil now.
Why?
Because, although there are
still problems, there are
opportunities.
For instance, Brazilians that
left Brazil for economic
reasons, that came to the United
States, and some of them were
very successful, they studied,
they improved, will have, if
they go back, and their
children, if they go back with
more of an ambition, et cetera,
will probably find better
opportunities now than existed
when they left.
>> HINOJOSA: So the reality on
the streets, though, you know,
the street children.
That movie Pixote, you know, all
of those images, it still
exists.
>> SOTERO: Oh, sure, it still exists.
>> HINOJOSA: And so how can
Lula's term, or ending of his
term, be seen as a success when
you still have that kind of
poverty?
>> SOTERO: No, President Lula will enter
history a successful President,
the most popular President of
Brazil.
And I think he will remain
there.
But, you know, public safety is
a major issue in Brazil.
It's a major issue associated
with narcotraffic, so we have
to be more intelligent in the
way we go about that.
But again, you know, the issues
that Brazil face today in this
moment of promise are issues of
quality of life, not only for
the elites.
The elites in Brazil have always
had a nice life.
It's for we the people, the
people that you see in the slums
in Rio.
This is the people, this is the
moment of promise.
And you have solutions.
For instance, in Rio...
>> HINOJOSA: Let me just ask you
before we go, though-- so, World
Cup coming up.
>> SOTERO: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: The Olympics coming
up.
>> SOTERO: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: What will those two
events do to transform Brazil?
And tell our audience then why
they should even think about
finding out more, or going to
Brazil?
>> SOTERO: Well, I think what they do
that's very good for Brazil,
they give us some deadlines, you
know?
There are some issues of mass
transit, of infrastructure, that
we have to resolve by the time
we start receiving, you know,
foreign tourists that will come
to Brazil for the World Cup, for
the Olympics.
This is part... this is a good
opportunity for Brazil.
I think it's seen in that light.
And... but I think that Brazil
is capable of tackling those
issues, as long as, you know, we
know exactly who we are.
We are not a superpower.
We are a country that has really
made a lot of progress in the
last 20, 25 years in democracy,
with a stable economy.
We have really a very positive
outlook.
But it depends... the success
will depend on staying focused
on basically one thing-- how we
treat our own people, how we
educate our own people, how we
make our people from consumers
into citizens.
>> HINOJOSA: Paulo Sotero,
thanks for giving us an eye on
Brazil.
It's obviously time for me to go
back.
>> SOTERO: Thank you very much, and I
hope you'll go.
>> HINOJOSA: We'll try.
Obrigada.
Thank you for joining us.
>> SOTERO: Thank you, Maria.
>> HINOJOSA: Continue the
conversation at
wgbh/org/oneonone.
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