Transcript
>> HINOJOSA: Last year police
officers arrested more than two
million American children under
the age of 18.
A disproportionate number of
them were African American and
Latino.
Can this pipeline to prison be
stopped?
With us, Juvenile Court Judge
Leslie Harris.
I'm Maria Hinojosa.
This is One on One.
Judge Harris, welcome to our
program.
>> Thank you.
>> HINOJOSA: So Leslie Harris,
you serve on the Juvenile Court
here in Massachusetts.
>> Yes, Ma'am.
>> HINOJOSA: And I guess, before
anything, I am sitting before a
judge, so should I call you Your
Honor?
>> In court, I'm Your Honor.
>> HINOJOSA: Okay, I hope I
don't have to see you in court.
>> No.
Outside I'm Leslie.
>> HINOJOSA: You're Leslie.
So we can do Leslie.
>> Yes, Ma'am.
>> HINOJOSA: So you have a
fascinating background.
You grew up in Chicago, on the
South Side of Chicago.
And you very easily could have
become one of the statistics
that we hear about-- dropout
young black man ends up, you
know, involved with the criminal
justice system.
You ended up in a very different
place.
You are now sitting on the
bench, and you're looking at
these young people who come
before you.
Tell me a little bit about how
you made that transition from
almost being a dropout to ending
up as a judge.
>> Well, the dropout was easy.
The assistant principal caught
me and explained to me in
none-too-gentle terms what he
would do to me if I wasn't in
school.
But that was the '60s, and he
could do that.
>> HINOJOSA: And he actually
said to you... he caught you
going back into school because
you wanted to go back for your
band practice.
>> Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: You had been
cutting school.
>> Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: And he caught you
and he said... what did he say?
>> He said he'd beat me,
physically beat me.
And he didn't say it quite like
that.
He used some other language.
But he got it across to me then.
And I was afraid of Mr. Springs.
He was one of those wonderful
men who kept the school running.
He was an assistant principal,
and cared about us.
>> HINOJOSA: And at that moment,
you basi... you could have just
said, "Well, I don't care what
Vice Pri...
>> And just not come back to the
school.
>> HINOJOSA: And what made you
say, "I've got to come back to
school"?
>> Well, I had already had
enough credits to graduate.
I didn't understand the
importance of an education at
that point.
I didn't connect that the people
who were basically mentoring me
were all college graduates.
>> HINOJOSA: Oh, so you mean,
like, people, like, whether they
were teachers or working at the
school, you thought that...
>> Or in the community.
>> HINOJOSA: You just thought
that they were just... they just
had great jobs because they had
great jobs.
>> Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: Not because they
had gone to college, or...
>> Never thought about it.
You know, I had already applied
to college, because friends of
mine were applying to college.
I had been accepted at
Northwestern and Notre Dame and
a few other colleges.
But I was going to be a truck
driver.
I wanted to see the country.
And...
>> HINOJOSA: I don't understand
that, though.
I found that fascinating when I
was reading your bio.
You had said that you... being a
truck driver, being a postal
worker, would have been good
enough for you.
But at the same time, you were a
good student, and you were
accepted at Northwestern
University in Chicago.
>> Yes, Ma'am, and had worked as
a student at University of
Chicago.
But making the connection when
you don't have... I didn't know
what a BA was, or a Master's
degree.
I was going to get a diploma,
because I had never sat down
with anyone and talked about
what college really was.
And it just... making the
connections, understanding the
importance of education and your
future, wasn't quite there.
Now, lucky for me, some of my
classmates were going off to
Northwestern, and they were
friends.
And so I said, "Oh, I'll go to
Northwestern."
I even applied to the Naval
Academy, and had met with my
congressman, and I was a
lieutenant colonel in the ROTC.
>> HINOJOSA: You were a good
kid, and yet you could have
easily just become a dropout.
So when you look at these kids
now who end up in your juvenile
court, and they have dropped
out...
>> I understand now the
connection.
I understand what the difference
is if you have an education and
if you don't.
Because I've gone back to
Chicago.
I've gone back to the projects
where I grew up.
I've looked for other friends
who didn't go off, and they're
not there.
They're either dead or in prison
or living bad lives, so many of
them.
And that frightens me, you know,
because I know the connection
between education and having a
future.
>> HINOJOSA: But how often,
Judge Harris, does it happen
where you know that you're
looking at a really smart kid,
and yet the kid doesn't get the
connection?
The kid thinks like you, like,
"School, somehow I'll figure
this out."
You know, "If I drop out of
school I'll still be able to get
a good job."
How do you know when you've
actually been able to make these
kids understand that connection?
>> Well, you know, when you talk
to kids, if you talk to young
kids, they want to be doctors
and lawyers and principals and
teachers and all.
And that's up to the third or
fourth grade.
When you talk to children in the
fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth,
high school, they want to be
football players, basketball
players, mechanics, beauticians.
And there's nothing wrong with
those jobs if that's what you've
always wanted to be.
But it's really settling, in
their minds-- "I'm not smart
enough to do these other
things."
>> HINOJOSA: Where are they
getting that message that
they're not smart enough?
How come they're internalizing
that?
>> I believe, my personal... I
taught third, fourth grade.
And I believe that between third
and fourth grade there's a
transition from learning things
to applying things.
And when children start having
to apply, and they start seeing
their shortcomings, they start
having doubts about themselves
and start saying, "I'm not smart
enough to do this," or "I can't
do this."
And instead of us as parents and
teachers and educators taking
them and trying to say, "Yes,
you can," you know, "with this
support and a little guidance
you can make it," they don't
always get that.
And, you know, when we have a
recession, when we start cutting
things, the first things we cut
are those services going to
children.
We cut the teachers, we take the
music out of the schools.
If they didn't have music in my
high school, I wouldn't have
been sneaking back into school
to get caught.
>> HINOJOSA: Right, because you
played on the band, and that was
a big deal for you.
>> A big deal, you know?
And the very things that make
children want to be at school
besides reading, writing, and
arithmatic is those other
things-- the debate clubs, the
drama clubs, the music.
Our kids don't learn music in
the city anymore.
Only special schools have music.
And it should be at every
school.
I keep hearing, like, in some
countries it's a part of every
child's education.
>> HINOJOSA: In fact, you have
this really radical idea that
you would love school to be
taught from 8:00 AM to 6:00 PM?
>> Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: Six days a week.
>> Yes, Ma'am.
>> HINOJOSA: And the...
>> The difference would be
children would want to be there,
because it would be more
exciting than not being there.
Teachers... we'd have two sets
of teachers-- the morning
teachers and the afternoon
teachers.
We'd have doctors there, we'd
have the services that support
children.
If a child became pregnant, they
wouldn't be put out of school.
Their child would become a part
of the school.
My belief is that we need to
teach every child more than one
language, that school should be
fun.
We have children...
>> HINOJOSA: But how long, Judge
Harris, how long have we been
saying that, "School has got to
be fun"?
And yet the dropout rate is so
high.
>> We talk about leaving no
child behind.
But we don't meet the needs of
children.
I never understood the mental
health issues, the social issues
that children were faced wtih
until I became a judge and had
to start addressing some of
those issues.
>> HINOJOSA: So paint us a
picture of what we're not
seeing, what we don't
understand.
I mean, you talk about mental
health, and I'm like, "What is
the mental health issue that we
need to know about, our
teenagers, our African American
and Latino teenagers?"
>> Our children have... well,
when you get up in the morning
and you're afraid to go to
school, you're afraid to be at
school, and then you're afraid
to travel back home, it's got to
have an impact on you.
So just the fear that some kids
deal with in their day to day
living.
But when your parents are
struggling, sometimes a single
mom is struggling, that impacts
children.
But there's also the ADHD, all
that alphabet that we label
children with, and the
medications that children are
put on.
And I have had many children who
are psychotic, who have severe
mental health issues.
And if we don't address these
issues when they're small and
young and able to get them under
control so they can still learn,
then we know what's going to
happen to them when they're
adults.
>> HINOJOSA: But, so how...
okay, you talk about some
children who end up in your
courtroom who are psychotic.
But what's a typical kid... I
mean, you're in that court...
>> Typical child that comes in
our court comes one time.
See, when we read newspapers and
we hear about our children, we
think that we have monsters on
our hand, and we don't.
Most of our children got in a
fight someplace, or got mad at a
police officer for speaking to
them in the wrong way.
>> HINOJOSA: And the kid
responded to the police officer?
>> Yeah, or, you know, just
stupid things that most of us
might have done as young people.
See, if I were growing up now,
first off I would have been put
on medication, because I was
disruptive in school.
>> HINOJOSA: You're a good
student, but disruptive.
>> Yeah, I'd finish my work and
mess with everybody else, you
know?
>> HINOJOSA: Okay, so you would
have been put on medication.
>> I would have a record,
because I had a fight in school.
>> HINOJOSA: Okay.
>> And today, if you have a
fight, instead of going to the
principal's office, you go
before a judge.
>> HINOJOSA: Which is really
crazy.
Are you saying that across the
country, when kids get into just
regular fights in high school,
it's not resolved by the
principal?
>> Not every school, but the
vast majority of the kids that I
have... who have come in front
of me for fighting, it's at
school.
>> HINOJOSA: And let me ask you
this-- is it that most of the
children who get caught fighting
and who end up in front of you
in the courtroom are African
American and Latino, and that if
the fight happens in a different
kind of a school...
>> Yes, Ma'am, that's basically
true.
Other schools have... still will
suspend you or make your parent
come up to the school.
We talk about zero tolerance in
too many of our schools.
And that has been interpreted as
if you get in a fight, you're
our, you're suspended, you're
sent away to a different school.
Instead of having that child's
parent or parents come up to
school and addressing it in
school, having that child stay
after schol, or doing whatever
you have to do to address it in
school, they're taking it to
courts.
>> HINOJOSA: Okay.
But I'm sure that there are some
parents who are seeing this who
are saying, "Wow, you know, I
understand what the judge is
saying, but if there's a kid
who's fighting in the school,
and maybe is..."
>> If you're a repeat
offender...
>> HINOJOSA: Oh, so you're just
saying don't send them off in
the first fight.
>> The first... you know...
>> HINOJOSA: Give the kid a
break.
>> If someone has a child on the
ground and kicking them in the
head, or kicking them and all,
they need to be in front of me
or some other judge.
But I had two young men in
court, had a fight at school.
They came to school, and one
parent was there.
I said, "Where is the other
parent?"
The one parent that raised
their... I said, "No Ma'am,
you're here.
I need the other parent."
She said, "I can explain.
He stayed the night at my house
last night because we both
couldn't take off from work, so
I brought the boys to court this
time.
Next time she'll come."
I said, "Wait a moment.
What do you mean he stayed...
they were fighting."
She said, "They're best
friends."
That kid should not have been in
my court.
>> HINOJOSA: So they had gotten
caught in a fight, and they
spent the night together.
>> Yeah, you know?
When the fight's over, they're
still friends.
>> HINOJOSA: So what are we not
getting?
>> We are letting... first off
we're letting newspapers and TV
define who our children are.
They're making our children into
monsters, and they're not.
There are cases where the
actions of children are
monstrous.
I'm not arguing that.
And we have some horrific cases.
But that's not the majority of
children.
And we should not set our rules,
our laws, our guidelines, based
on those children.
I understand that we have to
have safe schools.
And I am... my wife's a teacher,
my oldest son's a teacher, I'm a
former teacher.
I want them safe in school, I
want my grandchildren safe in
school.
That's not what I'm talking
about.
What I am saying is that we
still need to go back to some of
the old-fashioned, "You have to
stay and do detention, you have
to go clean up this room," or,
"you have to do something,"
other than being put out of
school.
We have children who are
learning disabled, who have IEPs
that say that they're special
needs kids.
There's laws that govern how
many days they can be suspended
from school.
And people are not paying
attention to those laws.
See, teachers and principals are
being evaluated.
And they're losing their jobs
because of what's happening in
the schools.
So they want to have a
controlled school to show that
they can run a good school.
>> HINOJOSA: So it's all this
kind of, like, one... a notch on
top of another notch.
When these kids do end up in
your courtroom, and you do have
to see them and perhaps even
pass judgement on them, what
happens to these kids after
they've been in your courtroom
once?
I mean, do you see that they are
repeat offenders, or does this
experience completely put a
damper on their whole future?
>> Well, anytime you've been
arrested, your future has been
compromised.
When you get...
>> HINOJOSA: Anytime.
>> Anytime... that footprint in
Massachusetts will follow you
for the rest of your life.
>> HINOJOSA: Even if... as a
juvenile?
>> As a juvenile.
>> HINOJOSA: Isn't it supposed
to be that if you're a juvenile
your case is closed?
>> Well, they say that, but when
you apply for certain jobs you
sign a waiver so that they can
get your total record.
And that arrest... or when you
apply to college now, some...
the uniform college, the one on
the computer, asks, "Have you
ever been arrested?"
Not convicted.
"Have you ever been arrested?
Please explain."
So you have to explain away any
arrests that you have.
And that's a big deal when
you're talking about going to
college.
So to me, I want to keep
children out of court.
I want to keep them from being
arrested so that they don't have
to try to explain away an
arrest.
>> HINOJOSA: So when these kids
end up in your courtroom... I
know that I did a story a long
time ago for National Public
Radio where I uncovered that for
kids now, and kids of all races,
you know, going to jail is not
one of those strikes against
you.
It's kind of like, "I went to
jail, I'm a man now."
>> Yes, your red badge of
courage, as I call it.
One of the reasons I don't want
children locked up is because
they believe they can handle it,
they adjust to it.
They believe that they can do
it.
And they can say, "Oh, man, I
handled that."
You know, "I'm a man," you know,
"manned up," you know, whatever.
No.
Prison is not the same as a
juvenile detention center.
But I don't want these children
going into the adult system.
When we are successful, the kids
don't get arrested and go into
the adult system.
I consider it a failure every
time one of the kids we've had
ends up in the adult system.
>> HINOJOSA: Judge Harris, do
you... do you find yourself,
after you've spent a day on the
bench, getting home and just
thinking, "Did I do the right
thing, should I have let this
kid go, did I do the right thing
by sending him to a detention
center?"
>> Of course.
>> HINOJOSA: So you're always...
>> I have reversed some of my
decisions because I said, "Wait
a moment, there's got to be
another alternative," sometimes.
I mean, mostly when you make a
decision it's after you have
tried so many other ways to
address... we try diversion
programs, we try, you know,
child on probation.
The majority of the kids we end
up locking up are those who have
been on probation and have
failed.
Very few kids come in, get
convicted, and get locked up.
It has to be a gun or some
serious crime to do that.
Most children come in, either
they go into a diversion program
ahead of time, or if they are
convicted or plead, they're on
probation.
The problem is, most of these
children lack the discipline to
survive probation.
One of the studies that they did
years ago says anytime you put
someone on probation for more
than three years, you're setting
them up to fail.
This was an adult study, but I
believe it applies to children
even more.
If you're going to place a child
on probation and they survive
two years-- I mean, that should
be for a serious case-- without
being rearrested, the odds are
they're not going to come back
to the court.
>> HINOJOSA: So you have these
kids' lives in your hands.
Did you ever imagine that you
would end up... and when you sit
on your bench, you're in, you
know, your full court regalia,
but do those kids who come up to
you, Judge, look and say, "Wait
a second, he's got two diamond
studs in his ear.
What's up with it?"
I mean, do you talk to them and
you say... and you talk to them
like, "I understand you," and
they look at you like, "There's
no way, Judge, that you can
understand me"?
>> I've had one child tell me I
couldn't understand because I
was born with a silver spoon.
I said, "You just talked
yourself into an hour lecture."
>> HINOJOSA: Oh, my God, what
happened at that moment?
You didn't really give him an
hour lecture from the...
>> Well, close to it.
>> HINOJOSA: From the bench?
>> Yes, of course.
>> HINOJOSA: And you had the
whole courtroom listening to
you?
>> Well, the people who work
with me know me, and they all
knew what was going to happen.
You can't be late to my court,
because I believe being on time
is one of the things we need to
teach children, and sometimes
their parents.
There's a consequence to being
late.
>> HINOJOSA: And what happens if
they're late to your courtroom,
Judge?
>> The first time it's a
warning, the second time they go
into custody and let the lawyer
do an argument.
Most of the time I still won't
keep them, but I'm letting them
know that 9:00 means you're
there before 9:00.
I did not invite them into this
court, I don't want them in my
court, but if they're going to
be there, they're going to be
there on time and be respectful
and do what they have to do.
>> HINOJOSA: Well, there are
some people who say, "Okay,
Judge, well, it sounds like
you're kind of hard-edged on
this particular issue, but it
seems like you don't necessarily
want to sentence them, on the
other hand."
>> I don't want to lock up any
child.
In fact, we're working very hard
to reduce the number of children
that we lock up.
>> HINOJOSA: And you have a
program that's called the
Detention Diversion Advocacy
Project.
>> DDAP, as we call it.
>> HINOJOSA: Now, that project
basically lets kids go back to
school, be at home, they've got
mentors.
I ask the question, well, why
wouldn't you send every kid who
ends up in your courtroom who's,
you know, a borderline kid, to
the diversion project?
>> First off, you have to have
enough people to service them.
DDAP is intensive.
The people who work with these
children are on call 24 hours.
They take them to counseling,
they're involved at their
schools, they take them to
sports events, they work with
the parents, they're on call
from the parents and the
children as to need.
You can't do that if you've got
50 kids that you're working
with.
You have to have a small
caseload.
>> HINOJOSA: So you're always
having to triage.
>> Oh, yes.
And the real hard part about
this is that we know what works.
This is not rocket science.
We know that children who are
busy and engaged don't come to
court.
If you have a child's attention,
they're doing things that they
enjoy, they don't have time to
get in trouble.
We don't get the kids who are at
the boys and girls clubs, who
are involved in tennis, who are
involved in drama clubs and
those types of things.
Most of the children, I ask,
"What do you do after school?"
"Hang with my boys, I chill, I
don't do nothing."
You know, those are the children
we end up with.
>> HINOJOSA: Okay, well, from
the bench, what can you say to
them?
"I want you to get involved in
tennis, I want you to start
playing softball," and they're
looking at you like, "Judge
Harris, please, I live in a
really poor neighborhood."
>> Yeah, some neighborhoods have
no activities.
Through programs like DDAP, they
get into activities, they find
things for them, they get the
counseling they need.
They get the reassurance that
they are somebody important.
And that's why I find the
program so important.
>> HINOJOSA: But do you feel
like you're just, you know,
running, like Sisyphus, just
trying to get up that hill, and
you've got all of this against
you, you've got budget cuts that
are going to influence, you've
got, you know, the schools that
are cracking down and cutting
programs, and here you are, you
essentially see these kids when
they're about to go over the
edge.
>> One of the wonderful things
about being a judge and living
in the community is I see my
kids.
I run into them.
The other day I ran into a guy,
he's 20 years old, he said, "You
were my judge, weren't you?"
I said, "Yes."
He said, "Well, I didn't get in
trouble anymore.
I listened to you," you know?
And his girlfriend came out,
"Judge, oh, you really saved
him."
You know, you get that once in a
while.
Not all the time, but you get
it.
And it's what makes it possible
to go back and deal with the
other cases where you're not so
successful.
>> HINOJOSA: So give me a
success rate, Judge.
What are we talking about?
>> I have no idea.
>> HINOJOSA: I mean, are we
talking about...
>> Most of our kids are
wonderful young people.
The vast majority, I'm talking
95% of our kids, are just that--
children who were in the wrong
place, or did something stupid
one time or twice.
You know, but really aren't bad.
They're not out trying to hurt
people.
We have that small group of kids
who keep coming back, who are
our robbing people, intimidating
people, who are violent.
Yes, Ma'am, they exist, and we
need to deal with them.
But we don't need to throw them
away.
We need to take the time to try
to change their lives.
When you find out the history of
some of these children, what
they have been through...
>> HINOJOSA: And you... are you
able to ask that from the bench?
>> We do get... you know, we
have a court clinic, which helps
us.
They do counseling, but they
also do competency and criminal
responsibility.
DCS sometimes will give us a
history about this child.
And you see generation after
generation of abuse.
You see generation after
generation of drug addiction.
And then you say, "How did it
take this child so long...
>> HINOJOSA: To end up in front
of you.
>> ...to end up in front of me?"
>> HINOJOSA: And when you see
that case of that kid who's got
a generation, or another
generation behind him of this
problem, how do you save him?
I mean, do you believe that from
you, sitting on that court
bench, looking so authoritative,
and at the same time being able
to talk with them in a very
honest, clear... on their level,
how many of them are you able to
actually get through?
>> I think we get through to
more than we think.
I ask kids to give me their
word.
>> HINOJOSA: Oh, I love that.
And I'm sure there are people
who are saying, "Mmm, there's a
judge saying, 'Give me your
word.'"
>> People don't understand.
>> HINOJOSA: You want to give
these kids a benefit of the
doubt.
>> They give you their word that
they're going to do something
like go to school.
"Give me your word you're going
to be in school every day."
I said, "I'll take your word the
first time.
Now, if you don't do it, then we
have to deal with that."
I said, "But you give me your
word as a person, talking to me,
I'm going to take your word the
first time."
Because that's what I would want
people do to for me.
I say, "I take your lawyers
word."
Because most of the lawyers I
know.
I say, "If they say this is what
happened, I don't question that.
I want to be able to do the same
thing with you."
>> HINOJOSA: Where is it that
you get, Judge, this notion...
and I guess we'll just end here.
You are hopeful for these kids.
>> Oh, yes.
>> HINOJOSA: Where did you get
the notion of hope, and what is
the hope that you want to leave
us with so that when we see
these kids we don't see monsters
and potential criminals, we see
hope?
>> Someone who had dealt with me
as a child... I was told I'd
never finish eighth grade.
But people who had no obligation
to me, who did not know me
sometimes, helped me.
And I feel that I owe them, and
I owe our children the same
benefit.
You know, it's not just my
biological children I'm
concerned about.
I'm concerned about everyone's
child.
>> HINOJOSA: And thank you for
all of your work, and for caring
so much, Judge Harris.
>> Thank you for having me here.
>> HINOJOSA: It's a pleasure.
Continue the conversation at
wgbh.org/oneonone.
Captioned by
Media Access Group at WGBH
access.wgbh.org
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