Transcript
>> HINOJOSA: Through his
provacative large-scale
projections and public art, he
gives voice to ordinary people
and explores issues of conflict,
healing, empowerment, and
democracy-- internationally
renowned conceptual artis
Krzysztof Wodiczko.
I'm Maria Hinojosa, this is One
on One.
Captioned by
Media Access Group at WGBH
access.wgbh.org
Krzysztof Wodiczko, welcome to
our show.
Most people are going to know
your work.
They might hear the name
Krzysztof Wodiczko maybe, but
when we say that the work that
you have done as a conceptual
artist is huge projections on
buildings, then they'll say, "Ah
yes, I know Krzysztof; I know
Krzysztof."
Why this idea of projecting--
making your art so public?
What is it that you want to
communicate?
You want to make it free and
accessible to everyone, but the
message that you're trying to
say to people is what with your
work?
>> WODICZKO: Well, since the late '80s,
I'm employing in my work video
that is motion and sound, and
possibility of recording and
editing and transmitting
voices-- voice and gesture of a
person, people.
So from that time on, I would
think that the reason is to turn
those of whom we know nothing or
who are hidden-- invisible--
residents of our cities into
projectors so they can project
themselves on a large scale and
open up to large number of
people.
And learn, taking advantage of
this kind of project, how to
find words and metaphors and
expressions to convey often
quite difficult experiences.
>> HINOJOSA: But the fact that
you're seeing people kind of
talking themselves gives it...
there's a real kind of
authenticity about it, but you
put people talking about
themselves-- talking about very
intimate, difficult moments in
their lives for... we'll talk
about the work here in Boston in
a minute, but I want to talk
about what you did in Tijuana in
a project... there's a center
there called the Centro
Cultural...
>> WODICZKO: El Centro Cultural.
>> HINOJOSA: ...and you did that
very well, Krzysztof.
Do you speak Spanish?
>> WODICZKO: (laughing)
No.
>> HINOJOSA: A little after your
time in Tijuana?
>> WODICZKO: Not yet.
>> HINOJOSA: Not yet.
>> WODICZKO: Over the course of our
conversation...
>> HINOJOSA: Maybe.
>> WODICZKO: ...I will absorb...
>> HINOJOSA: A little.
So what you did in this border
city of Tijuana is that you had
the women workers who work in
these factories that are usually
making things that we end up
buying...
>> WODICZKO: Maquiladoras.
>> HINOJOSA: Maquiladoras.
You had them talking about their
work experience, their family
experiences, and let's see for
our audience if they can imagine
a huge building with a face
that's just as huge, and
oftentimes crying.
These women were crying; telling
very sad stories about abuse and
abuse in the workplace, abuse in
their families.
Tell me a little bit about what
that work... why that work was
so important for you to do it in
that way in Tijuana.
>> WODICZKO: Because I felt that for some
of those women, it would be very
important work for those who
were brave enough and they
calculated the risk to make
themselves visible and
recognizable on this scale.
For example, one of them, after
consulting family members, being
uneasy about it, she decided
that it's safer for her to be so
visible rather than hiding,
because she put her husband to
prison for incest and he was
about to leave the prison and
according to her, was no doubt
trying to kill her.
So this is an extreme case, but
there are many decisions of this
sort that this project demands.
This is sort of a self-selected
group of people who are speaking
on behalf of themselves and also
who become agents who are
speaking on behalf of others--
other women who cannot be part
of this project at this moment.
>> HINOJOSA: Because your whole
idea is that you want the
voiceless-- victims in this
particular case-- you want them
to have a voice, but the way
that you give them a voice is
not that you just put a
microphone in front of them and
say, "Speak."
You are saying, "I want your
whole city..."
>> WODICZKO: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: "...to see this."
>> WODICZKO: But also it is not enough to
give a microphone to the person.
To have her opening up and
sharing difficult experiences in
a public space, it takes time.
This project took almost a year
of recording, rerecording
discussions among those who were
affiliated with the
factoreques, the organization
set up by actually the federal
government to help maquiladora
workers to learn their rights.
But in fact, this organization
and the place where they were
meeting became an informal
post-traumatic stress therapy
group.
>> HINOJOSA: Were you there for
a lot of those times?
>> WODICZKO: Yes.
It's not that they were
conscious that that's what it
is, but in fact, they brought up
so many issues which the federal
government doesn't even know or
it's not prepared to help
so they could help themselves,
so that they took advantage of
the opportunity of my service as
a projectionist offering,
because of my reputation, by
insight, because of my position
as a stranger, somebody whom
they could call not "gringo" but
"artista Polaco."
>> HINOJOSA: That's how I
remember people talking about
you, you see?
Because I was in Tijuana around
that time, and that's right.
They were like, "Un artista
Polaco," a Polish artist.
>> WODICZKO: They choose to call me this
way because it was easier for
them to trust me, as artista
Polaco, rather than coming from
the United States.
>> HINOJOSA: So in a city like
Tijuana, where violence is a
part of daily life, when you put
these huge projections, and
people are then seeing kind of
much larger than life the
reality of the drama, did you
feel... and it's hard to kind of
take a pulse of this, but was
there a sense that this city
healed a little bit because of
this, because it was so kind
of... because it was a
conceptual art moment, and
because it was so in everybody's
face?
>> WODICZKO: It's hard to tell.
Everything that you do in a
city, it takes time for the city
to absorb and make sense of it
as a larger population.
But for those who offer a chunk
of their life or their
experience or time to speak
through this facade, I think it
was very meaningful.
And so it's very important to
understand what does it mean
that eight or ten people are
speaking through the building
after one year of discussing it?
It means that many of the
members of the families and
friends were part of the
project, because they had to
approve their participation.
Some of those people were in it
in initial meetings, but they
decided not to be part, but
they're still part of a network.
Then there are social workers,
without whom this project will
not exist, who trust the
project, and they're trusted by
those people.
And then there is an editing
crew, and there's a projection
crew, and there is... there are
journalists, media people.
So there is a kind of inner
public that is growing from
within the project.
It is part of the city.
>> WODICZKO: Right, because you opened
this dialogue.
>> WODICZKO: Right.
So I think the project works
from within that group to larger
and larger rumors, gossips.
Then those people come to the
site of projection or tests,
even before the projection, and
they form a kind of initial...
not spectator group, but
witnessness.
>> WODICZKO: Well, I actually...
>> WODICZKO: ...protect those who truly
are speaking, because they were
also speaking the real time.
>> HINOJOSA: So you as an
artist, you make this
commitment to give voice to the
voiceless.
>> WODICZKO: There's an enormous amount of
things that artists could do to
be an inspiring force in
creating conditions for others
to communicate the most
difficult things to those who
might not be immediately ready
to listen.
>> HINOJOSA: Do you feel like
there are young artists who are
out there who understand that
they want to work in the same
vein?
But is there support for this
kind of work?
I mean, when you're basically
challenging society and you're
putting it like you do with your
projections, front and center,
how much support is there for
that kind of critical public art
in America?
>> WODICZKO: I think the first part of
your question is there are young
artists who really are
interested in pursuing this
path, maybe using different
method than our generation has
developed, learning and being
maybe critical about we do, but
definitely sticking to this kind
of direction, horizon.
Many media artists, actually,
are doing this, transmitting all
this through contemporary media
and opening up to others.
In terms of support, I think we
are in a better situation than
we were several years ago.
>> HINOJOSA: Really?
Why?
>> WODICZKO: Because of the shift of the
policy of the United States
government towards...
>> WODICZKO: And how does that impact...
you mean that impacts in terms
of funding, in terms of
people... really?
>> WODICZKO: I feel that institutions such
as art centers, museums, but
also educational institutions,
cultural centers, they have more
confidence now that they will
receive some funds from the
government, if there are any.
But even without direct
government involvement, it will
be easier to convince some
boards of trustees or various
groups who are financing or
helping institutions to exist
economically to maybe take more
critical angle, at least once in
a while.
Because before, it was more or
less a culture of... a kind of
political economy of silence.
>> HINOJOSA: Really?
>> WODICZKO: Meaning conversations shifted
to other areas to avoid topics.
>> HINOJOSA: Now, I find that
interesting, because you grew
up... well, you were born in
Poland, actually in the middle
of the ghetto uprising, if I'm
not mistaken.
You then become a designer, a
kind of technical designer, in
communist Poland.
And you find a way of working
with art in a situation where
your society, at that time, was
very, very, very closed.
>> WODICZKO: This is very easy to answer.
It just might take a little
longer.
It's about my journey towards...
and a search for democracy.
For some people who grew up in
undemocratic environments, when
the level of unfreedom was
pretty high, crossing the border
there was the world that has
constitutions and elections.
It's usually an attempt to find
democracy.
Where there was no democracy
before, now people... a person
like myself try to find it.
And then I realized very quickly
that democracy cannot be found.
There's nothing to...
>> HINOJOSA: There's no nirvana.
>> WODICZKO: If they took away democracy,
then I thought someone would
give it back.
No.
>> HINOJOSA: You were looking
for the easy answer.
>> WODICZKO: I realized that democracy is
something that has to be made.
It is something that will never
be fully achieved.
It's a continuing process of
chasing after this phantom of
democracy.
>> WODICZKO: You also say you like the
part of peace that is difficult.
>> WODICZKO: You cannot make peace being
peaceful.
>> HINOJOSA: You have to create
a lot of angst, change.
>> WODICZKO: Because peace for me has
something to do with inclusion
of many voices, and more of a
democractic concept.
Because peace that is achieved
at the expense of democracy is
actually horrifying peace.
In fact, I grew up in this kind
of peace.
>> HINOJOSA: In a kind of peace
where supposedly everything is
fine, and there's no kind of
confrontation.
>> WODICZKO: It's about conflict and
disagreement, which is a vital
part of social life and human
life, and without which there is
no possibility of democracy.
Exercising First Amendment, for
example.
So we truly are into making more
and more of a complex and
difficult space for ourselves
rather than space completely
deprived of any discourse.
So that's a difficult project,
between seeking peace, and peace
from democracy, and trying to
contribute to the democratic
process towards a peace that is
more connected with life.
There is continuing a kind of
inner dialogue, and maybe
discussion.
But I'm on the side of waking up
and unnerving and opening up
voices and bringing... inserting
into the public space
experiences that are relegated
to the private realm to make
public space in very... with
every act of speech, and making
a democratic moment in every act
of projection.
>> HINOJOSA: I love that--
making a democratic moment with
every act of projection.
One of the things that you did
in Boston was that you had
people coming and talking about
their experience with crime,
being victims of crime.
And it wasn't very long.
It's not like... that's the
thing about Krzysztof's work.
It's like sometimes it can be
fleeting.
You're not sure when you're
going to suddenly see it.
It might only be up for one or
two days.
But... or hours, even.
I want to ask you a technical
question, though, Krzysztof.
So how... do you look at a
building as an artist and you're
like, "I can see an entire body
being projected on that
building, and I can see that
there's going to be a voice
coming from the top of the
building, and where the hands
are," or do you have an idea of
what you want people to say, and
then you look for the building
onto which you're going to
project this?
Which comes... or is it you
never know?
>> WODICZKO: It's a simultaneous process.
I've been searching... first of
all I had to learn about what
are the silences of the city.
What is it that is hidden that
is not being expressed, not
exchanged?
And there could be different
silences in different places.
So as... this is the beginning.
And then I try to find people
from whom I can learn directly
what they are-- potential
co-artists in the project.
Then at the same time I look
around and see, in the case of
those projections, what symbolic
historical structure is waiting
there to actually be a kind of
transmitting tower, transmitting
facade, the witness, the
momument that witnesses, has
seen a lot.
And in Charlestown, people who
are part of this organization
called Chalrestown After Murder
program.
The women who lost... the
mothers who lost their children
to gun battles and executions,
they were telling me... they
actually are saying it to each
other-- "What if monument could
speak?"
>> HINOJOSA: Oh, my gosh.
>> WODICZKO: Because the monument has seen
so much.
>> HINOJOSA: And that's exactly
what you did, was that you made
the monument speak.
>> WODICZKO: I just simply... I would say
simply responded to this hope
that the monument should... the
monument of course is more just
than the made of stone obelisk
that has seen all of those
murders.
It's also built in hope for
democratic society.
The cornerstone was placed by
Marquis de Lafayette.
It's a monument to the first
revolutionary battle that was
staged in hope to create a world
with rights, and the right to
life, liberty, pursuit of
happiness.
>> HINOJOSA: And one of the
things that you focused on in
your work, there are two groups
of people who you have focused
on in your work that are really,
really fascinating.
One of them is immigrants,
immigrants without a voice, and
the other one is the homeless.
>> WODICZKO: And veterans.
>> HINOJOSA: And veterans.
So let's talk a little bit about
the work with immigrants.
You have...
>> WODICZKO: They are called the Alien
Staff.
>> HINOJOSA: The Alien Staff.
>> WODICZKO: Yes.
>> HINOJOSA: Which I remember
when I first saw it I was like,
"What is this?"
It's essentially a staff that
has... it's carrying...
>> WODICZKO: It's like a walking stick.
>> HINOJOSA: It's a walking
stick.
>> WODICZKO: It's got a certain symbolic
power, like, that's why it's
called staff.
>> HINOJOSA: And it's got their
memories, it's got their
passport, it's got their papers?
>> WODICZKO: It has plexiglass containers
in which you could see precious
relices of immigrants that are
witnesses to the whole history
of this displacement, the
documents, memorabilia.
Objects that they might only
want... they don't want to
explain to anybody, but they
want to have them with them.
And at the top, there is a video
monitor and speaker, and also
there is a device from which you
could... that records
testimonies.
So this is speaking, speaking.
>> HINOJOSA: I just love the
notion of people kind of
carrying their history with
them.
>> WODICZKO: And by their history they're
doubled, because those walking
sticks speak.
So they are...
>> HINOJOSA: They're not only
carrying the history, they're
projecting the history.
>> WODICZKO: Yes, so once all of this is
recorded and edited, and then
projects itself from the stick,
the owner or the operator of
this alien staff might become a
mediator between the stick and
the people who will approach
and, out of curiosity, start
listening.
>> HINOJOSA: I want one of those
alien staffs.
But before we end-- we've just
got about three minutes left--
I want you to talk about another
fascinating project, this one
about the homeless.
Again, you started your career
as a designer, as kind of a
technical designer of things.
Then you designed this amazing
homeless...
>> WODICZKO: Vehicle.
>> HINOJOSA: ...vehicle that
essentially allows the homeless
person to sleep in this little
vehicle that they can push,
that's not a shopping cart that
they have stolen from someplace.
>> WODICZKO: And collect all of the
bottles and cans.
>> HINOJOSA: So how many... what
happened to the project?
>> WODICZKO: We sell them.
>> HINOJOSA: And you did this
project on the Lower East Side
of New York City.
What happened?
Are there homeless vehicles out
there still, Krzysztof?
>> WODICZKO: Not right now.
But it was a very important
attempt to create conditions for
those who have homes, homeful
people, to imagine that there
would be 100,000 homeless
vehicle taking over the city,
because that was the amount of
homeless people at that time in
New York City.
So that's an impossible vision.
So in a way it created
perception of something that
should not happen.
>> HINOJOSA: Right.
You made the homeless... that's
what you did, is that with this
homeless vehicle that was really
noticable, you made the homeless
entirely visible to everyone.
>> WODICZKO: Legitimate members of urban
community who work day and night
and use proper equipment for it.
They are not scavengers.
And also they can say
something-- how it happened that
they became homeless-- if they
are asked.
It's quite an important attempt
actually not to legitimize the
homelessness, but to articulate
that this is a legitimate
problem.
>> HINOJOSA: Krzysztof, it seems
like what you do is you build
these mechanisms, whether
they're homeless vehicles or
these projections, these
instruments that kind of allow
us to open up that dialogue.
>> WODICZKO: Yeah.
I'm creating something in
between, an artifice that helps
one party to open up and develop
capacity to convey, express,
very difficult experiences, even
if this is an unsolicited act.
And the other party to come
closer, open ear without also
fear of hearing what they hear,
or seeing what they see.
And so that is a very important
process.
Of course, I start with those
who have things to say of which
people don't want to hear.
So this is the beginning.
They are the ones who have to
start this process.
But without special artifice,
artistic and cultural project,
such possibility is very hard...
situation is very hard to
achieve.
>> HINOJOSA: So Krzysztof, just
in the last few seconds that we
have left, what is the next big
project that you want to leave?
>> WODICZKO: This is the project that I am
still working on.
It's hard for me to tell what it
is.
But definitely I would like to
contribute to an understanding,
a breaking the wall, between
those who know what war is and
those who don't.
I'd like to continue working
with war veterans, returning
soldiers and their families, who
are actually proper veterans as
well.
Krzysztof Wodiczko, thank you so
much for your work, and please
keep us informed.
We want to know.
>> WODICZKO: I will definitely do so.
Thank you for inviting me.
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